Ballast glue besides white glue

[ATSF_Ron]

I'm adding a new piece to my existing sectional layout.  I started with Atlas code 55 but grew frustrated with the turnouts.  Decided to go with Peco, as my tests were much more reliable for ALL locos that I own, including some older non-DCC locos I'm not parting with.  My problem is NOISE!  I can't stand the noise level increase when I'm done ballasting the track.  I get the whole reasoning for the noise when using white glue, but what are some realistic options to white glue when ballsting?  I tried some matte medium several years ago.  It was better in terms of noise, but I didn't care for the white residue I got when it was all dry.  Also there was significant "balling up" of ballast while applying said matte medium.  Maybe it was my mix ratio?  If I recall correctly it was 50/50 water & matte medium.  I use a pre wetting agent of 91% isopropyl alcohol.  It's been so many years, now that I think about it I may not have used the isopropyl alcohol first and that may have been the problem with the balling up effect.  For roadbed I use Woodland Scenics foam roadbed.  The black stuff.  For bonding track to roadbed I used either Liquid Nails or some other type of caulk I had lying around.

What do the ballsting gurus recommend?  I've definitely improved the look of my ballast over the years to an acceptable level.  I'd like to drop the noise level by half, at least.  What do you ballasting guys recommend?  Thanks!

[mu26aeh]

I'm a big fan of Ballast Magic

[ednadolski]

I'm a big fan of Ballast Magic

Is this basically the same stuff (Methy Cellulose Powder)?  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001QQ7LOA/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_7?smid=A3C428EB3V29VM&psc=1

Ed

[ATSF_Ron]

Wow! Thx for that post. I’ll have to try this out. Are you happy w your results?

[robert3985]

If noise is a big problem for you, then the place to start is with your layout's benchwork.  Large slabs of rigid materials act like speaker cones and amplify track noise, with the lighter-weight materials, such as Styrofoam, being the worst offenders.  Thin plywood also is bad, and hollow-core doors, since they're made of thin materials, also amplify track noise.

What's the "solution"??  Since I am addicted to DCC sound, I want my trains to run with the least track noise I can reasonably engineer, and so my modular/sectional layout's 6' sections are constructed of 3/4" plywood (ends) and structural premium 3/4" pine boards...using L-girder construction (glued and screwed) with the subroadbed being supported by cross-members and risers.

I don't use the "tabletop" (made of any material) because I model mountainous territory with rivers, gulches and rocky cliffs...so a flat tabletop is counter-intuitive as much of it would have be cut away for below-track-level scenery contours, and what is under the cliffs is just wasted material.

I also don't make a tabletop because it acts as a drumhead and amplifies track noise...even heavy 3/4" plywood in large planes.

So, to save money, to be more efficient with my building materials and for ease of construction, I decided long ago to go with splined Masonite subroadbed, made from 1" splines of 1/4" and 1/8" Masonite glued together with yellow carpenter's glue. 

As an added benefit, it was amply evident that the sound level of trains running on portions of the layout's trackage that's supported by the splined Masonite subroadbed was MUCH quieter (almost silent) as compared to yard areas build on 3/4" plywood subroadbed.

Also, some industrial trackage is built directly onto the 3/4" plywood with no cork roadbed, and is much noisier than trackage that has cork roadbed...and trackage on splined Masonite subroadbed with cork roadbed is ultimately quiet.

I have not found (or noticed) that the type of ballast glue I'm using has contributed to track noise, but for 20+ years, I used Liquitex Matte Medium diluted with water with a drop or two of dishwashing soap added as my ballast glue...and Matte Medium is slightly flexible, which may contribute to its noise deadening quality.  However, all artist's Matte Medium started leaving a white residue when Talc was discovered to be a carcinogen and something else got substituted in its place in the product.  So, I used Elmer's white glue, which gave me a slightly glossy finish, which I corrected with Dullcote.  However, I found that Elmer's, on my portable layout, had a tendency to chip in some situations...so, I decided to try Mod Podge Matte, and I've been very happy with it the last 6 or 7 years...much more so than the previous Elmer's mixture.

When I do my ballast (and ballast on customer's layouts/modules) I apply the ballast and shape it first, then wet it using water with a couple of drops of Dawn dishwashing soap in it with an "atomizer"...not a spray bottle.  Spray bottles squirt out much too large droplets of water that crater the dry ballast, whereas an "atomizer" produces an extremely fine mist of water that doesn't have either the water velocity nor the large size droplets of a spray bottle, so there's absolutely no cratering.  You can find atomizers on Amazon. 

Once the ballast is thoroughly wet with "wet water", I apply the water/Mod Podge Matte mix (that also has a couple of drops of Dawn in it) with a big eyedropper applied between the rails and letting it flow outward and down, making sure I don't squeeze the eyedropper bulb too hard which produces too much glue velocity and will wash away wet ballast.

Then, I let it dry...and it looks good.

I also use this method for gluing down my base coat of fine dirt for the rest of my scenery before adding ground cover and static grass.

When doing ballast, I work in about 18" lengths, working progressively when applying the glue.  I work in 36" lengths when applying and shaping dry ballast...and if I've got a day over a weekend, I'll do an entire 6' long module...still applying the ballast glue progressively.

Soooo...I think the Mod Podge Matte is quieter than Elmer's because it is more flexible.

I also think that Midwest Cork Products N-scale Cork Roadbed is much better than WS roadbed because it is denser, and can be sanded for a much smoother foundation for gluing track to.  Some local model railroaders here have had problems with the ballast of their track laid on WS roadbed cracking and flaking off because it is so flexible.

From a sound-deadening standpoint, I'll guess that cork, since it is exponentially denser than the WS roadbed, will deaden track noise much better also.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[chuck geiger]

Just switched to Modge Podge Matte. Mixed with 2/3rd's water and 1/3rd Modge Podge applied over a misted section
of track that has been sprayed with 90% IPA. I mix it in a condiment bottle with a cap on top and it works great. I
stopped the eye dropper and clogged mister for ballast and scenery glue last week. Just drag the top along the ties.
Just did this section that way.

[Rossford Yard]

I'm a big fan of Ballast Magic

Me, too. I picked up a Prosser ballast spreader and a bottle of Ballast Magic and I am hooked.  The super thin applicator applies it well, and it seems one coat is enough to bond the ballast.  So I bought more refill bottles.  Expensive, so if the other product is really the same, that would be nice.

At the National Joe Fugate recommended Track Magic for track cleaning as it has the lowest oxidation ratio (whatever they really call it, I don't recall) at 1.9.  Mineral Spirits were second at 2.1.  So yes, TM is slightly better but at $30 for a small bottle vs $8 for a large can of mineral spirits, I went with the second best option as a track cleaning solvent, LOL.

I just watched that video, and it is about their powder product.  I used the liquid version since I had never had any luck with other powder ballast glue, but that does look like it works great, especially around turnouts.

[Bill H]

I agree with Bob on ballast glue, Modge Podge or WS Scenic Cement work equally well. Like Bob, I use Masonite splines to support the track.

As to track cleaning, the MRH article is here;
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9
End of the article is the non-polar rankings.

Kind regards,
Bill

[rail_nut]

I wonder if using alcohol whitens the matte medium. I use 50/50 matte medium/water to hold track and ballast in place. Pin track in place and ballast it. Eyedropper as glue applicator. A few drops of liquid soap in water and an very fine spray to ensure matte medium goes in to secure everything.  Matte medium is flexible as opposed to white glue which I find rigid.  I use homasote (preferred) or tentest as the insulator over plywood and then cork sheet or road bed. I haven't tried this with foam so don't know if it would work. All material has to have flexibility to reduce noise transfer.

[robert3985]

I wonder if using alcohol whitens the matte medium. I use 50/50 matte medium/water to hold track and ballast in place. Pin track in place and ballast it. Eyedropper as glue applicator. A few drops of liquid soap in water and an very fine spray to ensure matte medium goes in to secure everything.  Matte medium is flexible as opposed to white glue which I find rigid.  I use homasote (preferred) or tentest as the insulator over plywood and then cork sheet or road bed. I haven't tried this with foam so don't know if it would work. All material has to have flexibility to reduce noise transfer.

I've never used alcohol as a wetting agent, and I used the highest quality Liquitex Matte Medium...and got whitening really badly.  So, no, I don't think IPA is the culprit.  I'm pretty sure it's whatever they had to replace talc with that does the deed.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[signalmaintainer]

I use isopropyl alcohol 50 to 70 percent as a wetting agent, applied with an eyedropper. Glue mix is four parts water, one part Liquitex acrylic matte medium, also applied with an eyedropper. I've not had any "whitening" issues, probably because I don't sink the eyedropper into the mix very deeply, and because I mix a new batch at the first hint of suspended talc hitting the ballast.

[ATSF_Ron]

Lots of good options here, thanks guys!  I think I'll try some small test sections of a few materials using some crappy old Atlas code 80 I have lying around to see which is best for me.

[jpwisc]

I’ve used WS Scenic Cement for years and I’m quite happy. Once scenery is complete on a section, it’s quite quiet. I used 1” foam laminated to 3/16” birch plywood. Quite quiet.
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[ATSF_Ron]

jpwisc, that ballast job looks great!  I've thought about the Scenic Cement but never have used it.  I've read reviews and most people really like it.  Do you thin it at all or just use as is?  Do you put any kind of "wetting agent" down first?

[GGNInNScale]

Hi   I use Elmers white glue, about 50%, 40% tap water and 10% isopropyl alcohol in an old Elmer's bottle.  I spray first with 50:50 IPA:water in a fine mist sprayer to wet the ballast.  Then, I run the Elmer's bottle down the center of the track (avoid switches of course).  Wait until it soaks in, then go down the outside of the rails with a steady stream to soak the ballast along the sides.  Wait over night, and touch up if necessary (just poke with a stiff paintbrush).  Worked well for years.  Forms a crust so you can easily repair by breaking the skin.