Grapevine, Texas NTS 2023 - Announcements

[peteski]

The unifrogs are also very good. We have both the classic electrofrog and the unifrog. The older insulfrogs did create some problems (shorting at the frog and wheels picking the frog) but not the electrofrog and unifrog. ‘Officially’ the electrofrogs are not DCC friendly but we never had any problems with it. We’re using DCC since 1994 and with many different brands of rolling stock. The nice part of the unifrog is that it is DCC friendly and powering the frog has been made very easy. And they remain very sturdy.

Marc

I just don't like the broken-up rail look of unifrogs.  All the frogs and point rails in electrofrog turnouts on my friend's layout are powered by contacts on the Tortoise switch machine.  Only 2 insulating joiners are needed on the rails exiting the frog, and  it all works very well. Problem free for over 20 years.

[mike_lawyer]

I just don't like the broken-up rail look of unifrogs.  All the frogs and point rails in electrofrog turnouts on my friend's layout are powered by contacts on the Tortoise switch machine.  Only 2 insulating joiners are needed on the rails exiting the frog, and  it all works very well. Problem free for over 20 years.

Didn't Peco redesign the Unifrog on the HO Code 83 line so that it is an isolated frog with insulated gaps? 

[peteski]

Didn't Peco redesign the Unifrog on the HO Code 83 line so that it is an isolated frog with insulated gaps?

Probably, but those gaps is why I don't care for unifrog (in any scale).  Here's their current (non-American prototype) N scale C55 unifrog turnout.

[Cajonpassfan]

I'll just drop this here to remind folks (and manufacturers) what a frog, and points, and ties, look like.
Yes I do understand the limitations of scaling down the prototype and the need for wider flangeways,  but can't believe that what Peco is showing us here is the best we can do in 2023..
Otto K., ducking for cover

[mike_lawyer]

I must say, the best commercial turnouts I have seen are the new Walthers Code 83 line.  I have no experience with operating over them, but visually they are impressive.  Non-hinged points, fully isolated frog with a solder tab, and look great.

Too bad Walthers will probably never make an N scale track line.

[robert3985]

I must say, the best commercial turnouts I have seen are the new Walthers Code 83 line.  I have no experience with operating over them, but visually they are impressive.  Non-hinged points, fully isolated frog with a solder tab, and look great.

Too bad Walthers will probably never make an N scale track line.

Hmmmmm...I looked at the Walthers HO Code83 turnouts and I immediately saw that the ties are spaced way too far apart.  Prototypically, turnout ties are spaced noticeably closer together under a turnout than under track.  Although I like the frog much better than the Peco HO turnouts...less complicated and with smaller gaps positioned for a more prototypical look, I like the ties on the Peco turnout much better.  The throwbar on the Walthers turnout looks better than the Peco, and both have an over-center spring, but Peco thinks it needs to make the throwbar twice as wide as it needs to be.

As for "no hinges"...this greatly detracts from the prototypical look of both turnouts.  Point rails need hinges, and long closure rails with no hinges looks pretty bad IMHO.  Okay, you (a generic "you") might like it, but it isn't "real" looking...simple.

From a "realistic" looking standpoint, the very best turnouts made in either HO or N are Micro Engineering #6's, with ties spaced just like the prototype, with hinges at the heels of the point rails and a halfway decent looking throwbar with an over-center locking mechanism that doesn't overpower the headblock region of the switch.

Photo #1 - ME Code55 #6 Compared to a Drawing of a Prototype #6 Drawn to A.R.E.A. Spec's Taken from The Engineering and Maintenance of Way Cyclopedia:


Anybody out there have problems with their ME N-scale Code55 point rails losing electrical power?  I have two of them that I operate...one on my layout near the Echo Coaling Tower and one on my 6' test module, both with dead frogs...and I've NEVER had a problem with ME's simple point rail hinges not conducting electricity...never.

I also can't stand the long, skinny sections on both Walthers & Pecos's HO (and Peco's N turnouts) closure rails with the railfoot missing.  Why is this easier to do than machining or casting proper point rails points/toes??  Seems to me that if point rails are going to be cast, why not cast them up in NS with throwbar attachment points at the toes and hinge pins at the heels...and while we're at it, lets cast in the tri-planing of the points so there no modifications having to made to the insides of the adjacent stock rails (greatly simplifying manufacturing)...so the point rails and stock rails butt up against each other like real turnouts do.  Hey, it's the Twenty First Century and there's such a thing as CNC machining and 3D printing nowadays...manufacturing a set of proper point rails shouldn't be a big problem, either CNC machined or cast.

The "big problem" is that manufacturers are still stuck in the 1960's with their turnout-think and jump through all sorts of hoops to make "model" turnouts, when all they have to do is look at the real deal for solutions.

So, you ask me "How do YOU know that tri-planed closure point rails will work in N-scale???  Who made YOU an authority on scale proportioned N-scale point rails???"

Well, I'm not the expert...Proto87Stores is, and I make full use of their tri-planed point rails, because ALL of my turnouts for the last six or seven years have tri-planed point rails, and none of my hand-laid turnouts have their stock rails filed away at the point toes...and they work like the real deal, and look like the real deal...and it's not that difficult for a CNC mill to do...and might be much easier for a large company like Peco to cast them instead of mill them...with none of those verrrry unprototypical looking paper-thin point rails...without hinges.

Here's a photo to prove my point about tri-planed point rails....

Photo #2 - Tri-Planed Point Rails from Proto87Stores in Code55 on my hand-built Turnouts:


That's my take so far with what Peco is doing...making MORE "model" turnouts without closely observing the way real 1:1 turnouts and switches work.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[dem34]

I'll just drop this here to remind folks (and manufacturers) what a frog, and points, and ties, look like.
Yes I do understand the limitations of scaling down the prototype and the need for wider flangeways,  but can't believe that what Peco is showing us here is the best we can do in 2023..
Otto K., ducking for cover

Its unfortunately an acceptance of the reality that while within this forum we push eachother to model at the limits. Nobody wants to lose market share because joe shmo needs the track to be compatible with the single Minitrix F3 he found at an estate sale.

[ednadolski]

Photo #1 - ME Code55 #6 Compared to a Drawing of a Prototype #6 Drawn to A.R.E.A. Spec's Taken from The Engineering and Maintenance of Way Cyclopedia:

Hi @robert3985 not to go OT, but any chance you could share a similar (large+detail == better) drawing for a #8 turnout?

TIA,
Ed

[garethashenden]

Hi @robert3985 not to go OT, but any chance you could share a similar (large+detail == better) drawing for a #8 turnout?

TIA,
Ed

Switches start on page 6 of this pdf, with tie plates etc later on.
 https://digitalmaine.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=larrabee_railroad_ephemera

[bigdawgks]

All this fuss about people wanting Peco track that is closer to American prototypes and here I am thinking they still haven't really nailed the UK prototype yet (at least not in N). For some reason North American modellers are very picky. Aside from Peco if you want good UK prototype track you need to assemble it from a kit. Yea larger market I guess...

[peteski]

All this fuss about people wanting Peco track that is closer to American prototypes and here I am thinking they still haven't really nailed the UK prototype yet (at least not in N). For some reason North American modellers are very picky. Aside from Peco if you want good UK prototype track you need to assemble it from a kit. Yea larger market I guess...

Well, the members of this forum are mainly Americans, or modeling American prototype. There are just  few here who dabble in European, British, or Japanese prototype, so I wouldn't expect any massive outcry for UK-spec track here. Maybe if you looked at other forums catering to US or European modelers, you would see more people looking for more prototypical track for their modeled region.  It is not just UK, the current track does not represent any prototype, so Europeans and Japanese are stuck with toy-like track too. 

[bigdawgks]

Oh I am aware of the demographic here. I follow a UK based forum too but there really isn't nearly as much discussion about stuff like this. I think most UK N gauge modelers are less concerned with extreme prototypical accuracy. Maybe they haven't been spoiled by highly detailed models like NA has? Maybe because the scale is already a compromise it's less of an issue? I don't know the reasoning but it's definitely a different culture.

That said, for a UK based company, Peco hasn't really been innovating much in the UK market. I guess it's a little upsetting that they are focusing on the NA market for growth instead of their home one. I understand why, but I can still be upset about it.

[James Costello]

MRH has their usual awesome coverage of the show, which includes much more coverage of the JTC flat car (3 versions shown), the coupler and their new truck / wheelset.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/2023-national-train-show-day-3-sunday-8272023-12723624?pid=1335825954

A lot of discussion on the Peco track over the 3 days of show updates - not all of it is worth reading due to typical forum thread-drift   

[garethashenden]

Oh I am aware of the demographic here. I follow a UK based forum too but there really isn't nearly as much discussion about stuff like this. I think most UK N gauge modelers are less concerned with extreme prototypical accuracy. Maybe they haven't been spoiled by highly detailed models like NA has? Maybe because the scale is already a compromise it's less of an issue? I don't know the reasoning but it's definitely a different culture.

That said, for a UK based company, Peco hasn't really been innovating much in the UK market. I guess it's a little upsetting that they are focusing on the NA market for growth instead of their home one. I understand why, but I can still be upset about it.

The UK modellers who care about prototypical trackwork model in 2mm Finescale. Or EM/P4. I would argue that the average American modeler doesn’t care about prototypical trackwork either, if they did they would handlay everything to get it right. But if there’s a commercial product available that’s close then it would remove some of the work and probably be quite popular. Peco has introduced bullhead rail track in OO recently and it has been well received. N may happen eventually.

[squirrelhunter]

Oh I am aware of the demographic here. I follow a UK based forum too but there really isn't nearly as much discussion about stuff like this. I think most UK N gauge modelers are less concerned with extreme prototypical accuracy. Maybe they haven't been spoiled by highly detailed models like NA has? Maybe because the scale is already a compromise it's less of an issue? I don't know the reasoning but it's definitely a different culture.

That said, for a UK based company, Peco hasn't really been innovating much in the UK market. I guess it's a little upsetting that they are focusing on the NA market for growth instead of their home one. I understand why, but I can still be upset about it.

I think that is partly because they made a big investment in a TT scale track line to go with the new Hornby TT equipment.

I think given the compromise nature of British N (and HO/OO) having a non compromise scale that doesn't require expericed modeling skills out of the gate would be a game changer except Hornby seems to want to market it as a trainset scale. I think they would have been better served to release coherently themed items for a layout (GWR tank engine branch, BR blue mainline station, etc).