Better Ed's Sanded Grout Experiments

[Ed Kapuscinski]

@Ed Kapuscinski has generously sent me several samples of the sanded grout which he uses for N-scale ballast (thanks Ed!), as I was interested in trying this out as a possible alternative to Smith+Son ballasts as well as several (most?) other brands of commercial stone ballasts which lately have become difficult or impossible to obtain.  So here is the first sample track that I have put together, using Ed's "Ballast Mix" colors combo as detailed here: https://conrail1285.com/n-scale-ballast-using-sanded-grout/.

On thing I've done here that is a little different is to sift/screen the grout to several grades. I started with a #40 screen to get rid of anything oversized or chunked together.   What's in the pics here (on the left half) is from the #60 screen, and then from the #80 screen (on the right half).  To my eye, the #80 size is good if you want a really close-to-scale look for a mainline (helpful to make your models look more full-sized in closeup pics).  The #60 is easier to see the granularity in-person (and for that case the #80 would make a good branch line size contrast).

The screening is a bit time-consuming, and it actually turns out that the majority (like 75% or more) of the sanded grout is fine/powdery enough to pass thru the #80 screen and even a #120 screen, so at that point is it almost like a dust.  That's pretty high for an unused portion (some of that still could be used for roads, scenery, etc.), but I wanted to be sure to keep the grain size in a specific range.  Anyways, I've found that similar sifting is needed even for the S+S, AZRM, SE, Highball, and others (tho they don't have as much fine/powery/dust).

So here are the results.  This was applied using standard ballasting methods.  Of note, I think the grout tends to discolor/darken less than most commercial MRR ballasts that I have used.






For comparison, here is a sample of the Smith+Son (now defunct/unobtainable) in a couple of colors and similarly graded.  The Penn+Ohio on the rightmost sample is #60, and the rest are #80.



Overall I think the sanded grout looks pretty comparable. I think this is encouraging, even in light of the initial cost of having to buy several colors in 25 lb. bags each just to get started.  You do get to mix them to match the ballast color that you really want.

Ed

I want to break this off into its own thread. Lets see how it goes.

[C855B]

"Better Ed's...", Ed? Are we making value judgments here?     

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Success!

Ok, so Ed N, here are my thoughts.

1. That looks good. I'm glad the mix turned out.

2. Did you take notes on your blend? Or did you just eyeball it? As you remember, I kept track of mine in "parts"

3. It IS annoying having to make the upfront investment, but commercial ballast isn't getting any cheaper or more available, so it's a bit of a wash. Especially if you can go in halvsies on some of the more minimal colors you'll need with someone.

4. One of the big drawbacks is that the brands available at your local stores may change over time depending on what vendors are "in" with them at the time. I've run into this right now, and it's one of the reasons I was MORE than happy to empty my remainders into a bag for your experiments: I can't get replacements so I need to start from scratch with whatever Home Depot is carrying now.

5. Be careful with some colors when you're affixing it. Some grouts have a tendency to stain (since they do have pigment in them). Sometimes that's a desireable effect. Sometimes it's not. I don't have any words of wisdom there other than "test first".

[Ed Kapuscinski]

"Better Ed's...", Ed? Are we making value judgments here?     

Lol, I most definitely was! @ednadolski is twice the craftsman I am, at least.

[ednadolski]

Success!

Yea! I am really pleased with the way this came out.  Thanks for sending the materials!   

2. Did you take notes on your blend? Or did you just eyeball it? As you remember, I kept track of mine in "parts"

This sample is 100% the one that was labelled "Ballast Mix"... I presume that's the same formula that's on the webpage?   It looks to me like a pretty good representation of the Tehachapi Pass ballast ( @GaryHinshaw take note! )

... commercial ballast isn't getting any cheaper or more available

I was in a real quandary what to do without S+S, or AZRM, or even (shudder) Scenic Express.... 

(WS.... not an option....)

4. One of the big drawbacks is that the brands available at your local stores may change over time depending on what vendors are "in" with them at the time. I've run into this right now, and it's one of the reasons I was MORE than happy to empty my remainders into a bag for your experiments: I can't get replacements so I need to start from scratch with whatever Home Depot is carrying now.

Lowes right now has something (Mapei/Keracolor) that I hope will work.  Their 25-lb bags show each at about $5-6 less than the other brand at HD (Polyblend).

My order said that it qualified for free shipping, and it looks like it went thru, but I have to wonder if anyone is really going to ship that much weight for free.    We'll see -- it's supposed to show up Friday.   I just hope I can come up with a color mix that's as good as the one that you have.

Ed

[ridinshotgun]

Success!

Ok, so Ed N, here are my thoughts.

1. That looks good. I'm glad the mix turned out.

2. Did you take notes on your blend? Or did you just eyeball it? As you remember, I kept track of mine in "parts"

3. It IS annoying having to make the upfront investment, but commercial ballast isn't getting any cheaper or more available, so it's a bit of a wash. Especially if you can go in halvsies on some of the more minimal colors you'll need with someone.

4. One of the big drawbacks is that the brands available at your local stores may change over time depending on what vendors are "in" with them at the time. I've run into this right now, and it's one of the reasons I was MORE than happy to empty my remainders into a bag for your experiments: I can't get replacements so I need to start from scratch with whatever Home Depot is carrying now.

5. Be careful with some colors when you're affixing it. Some grouts have a tendency to stain (since they do have pigment in them). Sometimes that's a desireable effect. Sometimes it's not. I don't have any words of wisdom there other than "test first".

The bolded part is true.  I went out trying to find that laticrete brand that you used to only find it no longer carried and what was available didn't match in colors and was only in 25 pound bags.

[ednadolski]

I found this pic of the AZRM ballast that I used on my old Loop layout.  IIRC it is a mix of the N scale Northern Pacific and CSX/SP colors.

Grout FTW (for Tehachapi anyways).



Ed

[ednadolski]

"Better Ed's...", Ed?

LOL, that reminded me of this: 

[ridinshotgun]

I found this pic of the AZRM ballast that I used on my old Loop layout.  IIRC it is a mix of the N scale Northern Pacific and CSX/SP colors.

Grout FTW (for Tehachapi anyways).



Ed

I have been very displeased with my recent bags of AZRM csx/sp ballast.  It is mostly dust now compared to some older bags I had from them precovid.  Whatever machines they replaced there old broken ones with has diminished the quality severely and they won't respond to any emails about it.  I have to get my hands on a #60 sieve to see how much useable material their actually is.  The color has also shifted and I have posted pictures of that previously.

[ednadolski]

I have to wonder if anyone is really going to ship that much weight for free.    We'll see -- it's supposed to show up Friday.

Yes, it is actually possible to get free home shipping on 150 lbs. of sanded grout.... 

Here are a few pics of my first sample attempt at this using a single color (Keracolor Pewter).  Again I have sifted to #60 and #80 screens, with this sample having #80 on the left half and #60 on the right half.  The first two pics are the color as-is after it dried, and the second is with a thin wash of India ink and alcohol to darken it a bit.   Note that I also tried this wash on the two darker looking areas of the initial sample, however those have had several applications to make them even darker.

Texture-wise, it seems basically comparable to the results with @Ed Kapuscinski 's 'Ballast Mix' formula, tho of course more color mixes/combos are needed to try to get a better color matching + variety.  One thing I notice is that the closeup pics of the Keracolor seem to have that sort of "quartz-ish" look that I'm not too crazy about on some of the AZRM colors, tho you can't really tell in-person.  I can't tell at this point if that look will persist when more colors are mixed in -- some more trials are definitely needed.

Here it is prior to applying the darkening wash:






And with one layer of the darkening wash applied/dried:





(I don't think I was quite as careful in shaping the ballast profile in the second sample, as I was in the first sample.)

Ed

[Scottl]

It might be the rock snob in me, but I am not a fan of the rounded, translucent quartz sand grains.  At close magnification, it looks like (and is literally) glass.  It actually looks a bit like the glass beads as an air abrasive. I know it probably is not an issue from normal viewing distances, but it is the one thing that holds me back from grout as ballast.  Limestone screenings avoid this issue, as do the much coarser nut shells. Sieving limestone to 60 and 80 would probably be an interesting comparison. Just IMO.

[ednadolski]

Sieving limestone to 60 and 80 would probably be an interesting comparison. Just IMO.

Sure, but where could you get that?

Ed

[Scottl]

Limestone screenings are pretty common at landscaping places, at least where I've lived.  They also sell it as a soil amendment in a finer form but I am not sure how fine it really is.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

It's interesting. That quartz look issue is the same issue I have with the Scenic Express stuff I've been trying out.

I don't remember it being a problem on my last layout though.

It's interesting. I think it looks really good in this photo.

https://imgur.com/dDKiYpw.jpg

But not here.

https://imgur.com/9WSwMqV.jpg

I'm starting to think it's all about the angle you view it at.

[Scottl]

@ednadolski's photos look tremendous, so I think I might be splitting hairs here.  But his close up shot shows the sanded grout to be exactly what it is: rounded translucent quartz grains.  Those look nothing like real ballast that is angular and opaque.  Perhaps the size and color is all the really matters and his sieving of the grout definitely refines the look.

Wasn't there a company that sold limestone ballast?  Smith and Sons (maybe)?  I suspect it has become scarce but I recall seeing it posted by some here.

One of the few positive properties of the WS nut shell ballast is that it has a decent angular look to it, even if it is far too coarse for N scale.  It also takes color well so you can make whatever blend you want. Never mind the whole floating in the glue solution part...