Paint discussion - Apart from the poll

[wm3798]

Out of respect for @Lemosteam and his efforts to gather some marketing data, I thought I'd move my (as usual) overly exuberant thoughts on the topic in a separate thread.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts as well, and hopefully, encourage more of you to participate in the poll.

On the surface, it makes perfect sense for the major manufacturers of rolling stock and locomotives to market the paint that's used to decorate their offerings.

But given the current manufacturing ethos, where we get an ongoing series of limited production models, each in an even more limited array of paint schemes (overall the variety is good, but what gets produced this year may not come around on the merry go round for another 10 years, and God help the road name the doesn't meet sales projections)...  What are the odds that Atlas or MT or BLI will want to inventory more paint than they actually need?  Their business model no longer supports the ongoing supply of much of anything, much less something as demanding as paints, which would require an enormous amount of variety, endless inventory support, and a relatively low volume of sales given the decline of actual model building and the rise of increasingly complete and accurate models from the factory.

As it is, Atlas approves the color that their factory acquires for a project, they keep enough on hand to complete the current run, and whatever's left probably wouldn't cover 10 boxcars if the factory's buyers are doing their job right. 

There are probably some popular colors that could benefit from ongoing availability, but as the major manufacturers of paints have gobbled up our beloved cottage providers, even they can't be bothered to try to satisfy our appetite for Cascade Green or Action Red, or Armour Yellow...  And they're in the PAINT BUSINESS.  Atlas, Athearn, Scale Trains, et all, are NOT.  How could they possibly do it any better?

Yes, from the hobbyist's perspective, whether you're building a z-scale 2-8-0  or rebuilding a 1:1 scale 280Z, it would be manna from heaven to walk into the all night paint store and pick up a bottle or can of the exact factory color that was applied half a world away yesterday, or 4 decades ago.  I'm pretty sure that's just not going to happen.

So what's the solution?  Should there be a tiny version of the paint mixing department at Home Depot at your local hobby shop?  Is it possible to develop "recipes" for a range of railroad colors, just as it is for all the shades you see in the decorating aisle of the hardware store?  Imagine being next in line at that counter... "I need 2 oz of Enchantment Blue in a semi gloss acrylic please."  (would they give you a tiny paint stirrer?)



And when it comes to our model trains and the environment in which they live, why is it so *^&%%$ important to have a precise match?  Paint colors on the same railroad varied notoriously from shop to shop, and the impact of road dust and weather beat it down further.  Then, on top of that, we put our models on a layout under all variations of lighting, dust, cat hair and all manner of environmental duress.  Does it really matter that your paint color is off a bit from that 60 year old slide of a 20 year old caboose that you found in a box under a table at a swap meet? 

It's like worrying about the precise reproduction of symphonic sound from the stereo in your convertible.  It's nice, I'm sure, but do you really ever enjoy the full benefit of it?

I do enjoy painting equipment.  I do.  My solution is to model the Western Maryland where most of the engines are black, the cabooses are red, and the hoppers are oxide.  I keep a stock of giant rattle cans handy for just that purpose.  I've found that I can get "close enough" for certain other colors by mixing cheap craft acrylic paints and diluting enough them to shoot through my air brush.  So much of the hobby's enjoyment (for me, at least) comes from Trial and Error, experimentation, and pushing the limits of my own skills and experience.  I know that's not always a popular stance with some of you, my brethren.  But for me, it's a big part of the fun.

Discuss.
Sir Lee

[DirtyD79]

I think it would be nice if manufacturers sold a line of the paint they use for their models too. I mean a lot of times everybody's got a different shade of paint for the same road name and same car. I've seen model railbox boxcars and TTX flatcars paint ranging from lemon yellow to a dark mustard color and if you want to add detail parts on it can be a crap shoot getting a match.

[Lemosteam]

I appreciate that Lee, sorry to keep all this energy boiling up inside you!  Believe it or not, this is not an SPF fool's errand. 

I was planning to open up the poll to discussion today after closing the voting- I wanted one week to allow it to run its course, and I think it has.  I did not expect 4400 members to respond, but as in any lopsided race, the winner is obvious so I think the sample is legit.

I also externally appealed to Facebook groups, hopefully growing the ranks here a bit as well.

I am mostly referring to rolling stock, not necessarily locomotives, although I think that has merit as well.  Most reviews I see on new product indicate that the OEM colors are well executed, for the most part.  What I see a lot of here is; "what color should I use for this" or "here is my model color and I am happy with it".  All fine discussion, but what if one never had to ask or could paint their model with confidence?  After all, it's not eliminating the modeling portion- we still have to mask, spray, airbrush, decal, whatever.

Many of us may not have the patience or capability to mix something even CLOSE to what the manufacturers produce, much less having all of the colorants needed to do it properly.

Note that I am jealous and applaud those the do and can, my  's off to them.

I've tried- and failed too many times.  Then six months later I get the urge to bash another project, and my "not even close mixture" is completely dried up and useless despite my best efforts to preserve it.

Think of the manufacturer's profit side: earn money from the paint they have, or maybe even keep in stock (I do not presume to know how they manage it).  How many more projects or new tooling could be added to their repertoire, all WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, solving the MRR paint problem (I won't call it a crisis as there are workarounds).

Think of the undecorated model market that could now be painted to match one's current rolling stock (decals are a similar issue).

I also think that the minor color variations, that even the manufacturers suffer, is what would allow the color variations to be realistic and within reason, just like the 1:1. IMHO, The 280z reference is unrealistic as it would likely have metal flake, which is pure painter's expertise to match.

I think that my poll indicates the need, or at minimum, the desire for the potential market for product (not color) specific paint.

I think the first manufacturer to do this will utterly corner the market.

I don't even know if any of them are listening (reading) the poll or not.  I have had this idea in my head for a couple years and finally pulled the trigger on the poll to see what this relatively small sample showed.  That's all.

This is also why I did not want commentary- I wanted pure, visceral responses.

This thread can serve as the discussion from here on out.  Have at it guys!

[amato1969]

And when it comes to our model trains and the environment in which they live, why is it so *^&%%$ important to have a precise match?  Paint colors on the same railroad varied notoriously from shop to shop, and the impact of road dust and weather beat it down further.  Then, on top of that, we put our models on a layout under all variations of lighting, dust, cat hair and all manner of environmental duress.  Does it really matter that your paint color is off a bit from that 60 year old slide of a 20 year old caboose that you found in a box under a table at a swap meet? 

Right on, Lee!  Color-matching discussions are prevalent across modelers, like "your Sherman tank is too green" or "your F-14 is the wrong grey".

The guys over on MRH have published some mixology docs, which provide a nice starting point.  But like you say, watching real trains it's clear that fading and weathering give us modelers lots of license to create that variation in our models.

  Frank

[oakcreekco]

Out of respect for @Lemosteam and his efforts to gather some marketing data, I thought I'd move my (as usual) overly exuberant thoughts on the topic in a separate thread.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts as well, and hopefully, encourage more of you to participate in the poll.

On the surface, it makes perfect sense for the major manufacturers of rolling stock and locomotives to market the paint that's used to decorate their offerings.

But given the current manufacturing ethos, where we get an ongoing series of limited production models, each in an even more limited array of paint schemes (overall the variety is good, but what gets produced this year may not come around on the merry go round for another 10 years, and God help the road name the doesn't meet sales projections)...  What are the odds that Atlas or MT or BLI will want to inventory more paint than they actually need?  Their business model no longer supports the ongoing supply of much of anything, much less something as demanding as paints, which would require an enormous amount of variety, endless inventory support, and a relatively low volume of sales given the decline of actual model building and the rise of increasingly complete and accurate models from the factory.

As it is, Atlas approves the color that their factory acquires for a project, they keep enough on hand to complete the current run, and whatever's left probably wouldn't cover 10 boxcars if the factory's buyers are doing their job right. 

There are probably some popular colors that could benefit from ongoing availability, but as the major manufacturers of paints have gobbled up our beloved cottage providers, even they can't be bothered to try to satisfy our appetite for Cascade Green or Action Red, or Armour Yellow...  And they're in the PAINT BUSINESS.  Atlas, Athearn, Scale Trains, et all, are NOT.  How could they possibly do it any better?

Yes, from the hobbyist's perspective, whether you're building a z-scale 2-8-0  or rebuilding a 1:1 scale 280Z, it would be manna from heaven to walk into the all night paint store and pick up a bottle or can of the exact factory color that was applied half a world away yesterday, or 4 decades ago.  I'm pretty sure that's just not going to happen.

So what's the solution?  Should there be a tiny version of the paint mixing department at Home Depot at your local hobby shop?  Is it possible to develop "recipes" for a range of railroad colors, just as it is for all the shades you see in the decorating aisle of the hardware store?  Imagine being next in line at that counter... "I need 2 oz of Enchantment Blue in a semi gloss acrylic please."  (would they give you a tiny paint stirrer?)



And when it comes to our model trains and the environment in which they live, why is it so *^&%%$ important to have a precise match?  Paint colors on the same railroad varied notoriously from shop to shop, and the impact of road dust and weather beat it down further.  Then, on top of that, we put our models on a layout under all variations of lighting, dust, cat hair and all manner of environmental duress.  Does it really matter that your paint color is off a bit from that 60 year old slide of a 20 year old caboose that you found in a box under a table at a swap meet? 

It's like worrying about the precise reproduction of symphonic sound from the stereo in your convertible.  It's nice, I'm sure, but do you really ever enjoy the full benefit of it?

I do enjoy painting equipment.  I do.  My solution is to model the Western Maryland where most of the engines are black, the cabooses are red, and the hoppers are oxide.  I keep a stock of giant rattle cans handy for just that purpose.  I've found that I can get "close enough" for certain other colors by mixing cheap craft acrylic paints and diluting enough them to shoot through my air brush.  So much of the hobby's enjoyment (for me, at least) comes from Trial and Error, experimentation, and pushing the limits of my own skills and experience.  I know that's not always a popular stance with some of you, my brethren.  But for me, it's a big part of the fun.

Discuss.
Sir Lee

Agree 100%.

IMO, factories don't want or need the headaches of offering "factory matching paint."

It's  a perishable item, and it varies by run in many cases.

Just too small of a market opportunity, with too many headaches to be had.

Paint matching is a time consuming skill, not a commodity item.

[wm3798]

Here we have a Kato F unit, custom painted by a prior owner (I don't believe they ever offered this scheme), and a Trix B unit that I hit with Krylon rattle can.


I can find a thousand pictures of this kind of lashup where the blue has far more variation than this (although the carbodies might be closer to the same size! )  I've seen photos of strings of coal hoppers, all in the same paint scheme, where there might be three that look like the same color due to age, weathering, and dirt.  It's a bit of comic opera to me to agonize over a color match, then slop 10 washes of weathering over it.

And again, going back to the manufacturer's perspective, all they would end up doing is subcontracting the work to an actual paint manufacturer, just as they do now, only as the marketer of a product, rather than the end user, they would now be responsible for everything from the cost of the tiny jars to the maintenance of Materials Safety Data Sheets on the products, and as was pointed out upthread, the storage and shelf life a very perishable product.

I don't see an upside to them "cornering" that market.
Lee

[mu26aeh]

Paint color is rough.  Lighting, angle, personal issues (color blindness etc) all tell people different things.  If you need touch up paint, most spots will be small enough close enough will get you there.  But one example in the real world is G&W locomotives coming out of the paint shop.  There are 2 distinctive colors of orange that come out depending where they get painted at.  One is almost a creamsicle color while they other is a much more robust reddish orange. 

One thing that I do like about ScaleTrains, ( oh my goodness, I'm actually giving them some cred, don't worry it's about the only thing ) they tell you they use TruColor Paints so you should be able to get a good match there.  But IIRC someone had issues finding a match for something

[thomasjmdavis]

On John's poll, I answered that I would indeed buy paint from a model manufacturer. And IF they market paints that are accurate, and acrylic or otherwise water based or water borne, I will be happy to have them added to the available paint choices.  But the answer is more complex than that, and I see  3 main caveats-
1) The paint on any non-Micro-trains N scale model is a formula used in a Chinese manufacturing plant.  Beyond the MSDS considerations on hazardous materials, it will have been developed for use in an industrial setting- pressure feeds, UV drying, high volume spray booths, automated spray equipment- certainly not a single person using an airbrush at their hobby workbench. (These were reasons given to me by a manufacturer's rep at a train show 10-15 years ago when I asked essentially the question John is asking with his poll).
2) Frankly, a lot of manufacturers screw up on colors on rolling stock- they seem better on locomotives. I have ACL baggage cars that are a shade of purple radically different than the pre-order artwork, 6 different versions of ATSF mineral red/mineral brown (3 from the same manufacturer on the same paint scheme and same number series, but produced in different batches), and (even on locomotives) there seems to be no agreement whatsoever on what the light gray-green on Erie passenger equipment looked like. They may get this more accurate on modern equipment (where a swatch card can be held up to a real car, or the railroad can be contacted for a pantone number), but transition equipment can be hit or miss.
3) Rapido tried marketing a line of paints that (I believe) they picked up from a Canadian hobby supplier and re-labeled. All I can say is that their CN green was a good visual match for the real thing, and also a good match for the color used on their models.  Unfortunately, that product failed.  I suspect simply because hobby shops in the US were not selling enough paint to justify another line. I spent quite a lot of time trying to find it, and only located 1 dealer (in Ohio, IIRC) that actually stocked it, and a couple of hobby shops that carried Rapido and were willing to custom order it- although they could not guarantee I would get all the colors I wanted.  Too bad, they also had several 'boxcar red' and 'mineral brown' type colors- I used them all and between them could usually find a 'very close' match for 50s freight equipment.  The gist of this is that I wonder how many hobby shops would be willing to add Atlas, MTL and Scaletrains paint lines on top of whatever brand they currently carry. It's hard enough as is to find a shop with Tru-color or Model-flex in stock.

[Sokramiketes]

There's a sort of progression over time, as modelers progress in the hobby overall.  First, lets look at the progression that could happen:

1) Get a trainset as a present
2) Add on some stuff
3) "Discover" your favorite railroad
4) Buy everything in that railroad
5) Start buying books on that railroad
6) Compare your trains to pictures
7) Learn about eras, details, paint schemes
Try out the realistic modeling/ realistic details/ realistic weathering
9) Start researching everything
10) Railroad Prototype Modeling

It's almost like climbing a hill... and some folks are more than happy to stop at any of those steps and really have fun and enjoy their trains at that level.

But paint and paint colors have their own set of steps within that framework

1) Buy everything in your favorite railroad
2) Discover different manufaturers use different colors
3) Try to research what is right
4) Experiment with painting your own
5) Like a paint and paint system
6) Manufacturer goes belly up
7) Adapt to new paint
Start preferring a paint system instead of a specific color choice
9) Mix your own colors
10) Collect a blend of models in generally the same tones but slightly different colors
11) Realize everything doesn't have to be perfect
12) Gain an artistic eye to color selection that turns out to be more important than a specific color shade of whatever
13) Mix everything on the fly

So, would it be great if everything had a perfect color available in all of the prominent paint formulas?  Sure. 

But the real importance is getting comfortable with color theory and making the whole thing look good with subtle variations. 

[thomasjmdavis]

What Mike said.
One of the things I learned in the prototype research step was that a lot of paint, back in the day, was mixed on site- dry pigment mixed into binder- and "freight car brown" was whatever the local paint shop foreman decided freight car brown was- and a car painted in Topeka was not necessarily exactly the same color as one painted at Cleburne.  And, given that earth tone pigments are natural products, no two batches of "red oxide" or "burnt umber" are identical.  Even factory packaged paint, or the mix from the paint store, can have some variations.  When I had my scenery and display company, we commonly 'boxed' all our paint- which is to say, we would pour 3 cans of the 'same' color into a 5 gallon bucket and stir them together, to be assured of consistent color for the whole job.

[JMaurer1]

I would buy color matched paint for a particular brand of locomotives or rolling stock

Example: I have Con Cor, Kato, and Life Like PA locomotives in Southern Pacific daylight paint. SP PA's were extensively modified over their lifespan with the railroad starting almost from the first day they were on the road. The two most obvious modifications were removing the air grills and adding snow plows (available from Gold Metal, Sunrise and at least one 3d print offering). However, how do you paint the snow plow if you can't match the paint color? And buying different bottles of paint hoping to be able to match something 'off the shelf' doesn't guarantee anything either. At one time, I seemed to remember that one MFR was using one brand of paint and they let you know what that paint was, but I don't remember who or what it was. I guess it wasn't a successful experiment.

HOWEVER, paint is usually very difficult for a mfr to carry since it can be a hazardous material to ship. I can easily see why mfrs wouldn't want to carry paint for this reason alone, but then there are dozens and dozens of different colors that they would need to stock. It seemed like every RR had its own color (usually colors) that they used so now you take 2-3 different colors times all the different railroads and suddenly you easily have over 100 different colors that they need to stock. And you LHS is not going to order 3-5 of each of 100+ colors to stock, especially after already stocking two or three other paint lines...and that's just for trains (assuming your LHS stocks more than just trains). It won't ever happen.

[wm3798]

So much this!

I suppose in our "information" age, the availability of quick answers makes experimentation very frustrating to those who prefer to defer experience in favor of instant gratification.

Mike's synopsis summarizes it nicely. 

We either learn how to overcome obstacles and adapt to do things that make us happy, or we demand to have things we want (generally with very little effort) in order for us to feel happy. 

That's a much broader piece of psychology than simply finding the right paint requires, but when you carry the conversation to its logical extreme, there ya have it.

The discussion of manufacturing and marketing limitations, though, is probably the more cogent argument against our importers wading into the paint fray, and the experience of Rapido is probably evidence enough to squelch any such discussion in the board room of Atlas, Bachmann, ConCor et al.

Lee

[Lemosteam]

Why do we assume any limitations that the manufacturers may or may not have? 

Whomever attempts this does not even need to distribute to hobby shops?  That's old school, no racks, distribution or inventory are needed.

Market it on their own website.  It's just a matter of offering, selling, pilfering existing paint, bottling a color internally on the fly per order, and shipping (not hazardous if water based, I think) which can be charged to the buyer if they want it.

I have ENOUGH hobbies without trying to learn yet another FINICKY system.  I HATE mixing or messing with chemicals (liquid especially, one reason I still struggle with resin printing).  If someone wants to say I'm not a modeler because I don't mix paint- have at it.

I'd rather have my passenger consist nicely matched to my other ready to run models (my 20 PRR P70's for instance).  I tried six times to match my RTR diner.  Not effing happening.

Guess I just don't understand the consternation here, like somehow convenience is a black mark on a modeler.  It's OK so scour the world for the best drill bits, cutters, files, printers, decoders, etc. but not paint, Hooo Boy, that's just off limits for anyone that would dare to call themselves a modeler.

That last sentence may sound personal to me, I assure you it's not, as anyone who knows me personally can attest.  Maybe its just my instant gratification side, but man, would I just LOVE to buy a bottle of FCC (PRR Freight Car Color) for my as yet unpainted fleet of X32's, X29's, K7's, or the soon to be X23's to match all of the rest of my RTR cars. Just sayin'.

[Philip H]

I have never had enough brain power to worry about exact paint mixes, and thankfully my preferred prototypes make it easy. Frankly I grew weary of the "What color is Brunswick Green" debates decades ago - well before I hooked up IRL with the TRW crowd.  And it still amuses me that people actually care how green a nearly black color really is. 

What I want is a universal thinner.  So I can spray whatever I have in my airbrush without having to maintain a small flameproof chemical cabinet in the trainroom for thinners.  Having one thinner for Tru Color, another for Scale Coat (If I can find it) and a third for Testors/Polyscale is just . . . . I am tired just thinking about it. 

So paint on, but count me out until we get to the thinning.

[johnb]

or be thankful that @MTLJoe is here and is a great guy, I lost an SW1500 exhaust stack, and he was kind enough to  not only send me a replacement, but to shoot it in SP Gray