Broadway Limitied - Which Paragon 4 Heavy Pacific 4-6-2 is truly prototypical?

[Ngineer]

Hello,

I would like to buy a Broadway Limitied - Paragon 4 Heavy Pacific 4-6-2 that was just announced.

As I am not very steam loco savvy, can you please tell me which paint scheme is truly prototypical?

And do you know why some railroads painted the cab roof red? What was the idea behind that?

Cheers

Javier

[sd45elect2000]

The only road that got the original USRA heavy Pacific was the Erie.

[Chris333]

B&O and Southern had copies.

[dem34]

Unfortunately, the nature of Steam Locomotive Acquisition makes Ready To Run Prototypical steam almost impossible outside of like the Pennsy, NYC,UP,Santa Fe. Every Railroad had their own choice of where equipment was hung on the boiler, the exact size of drive wheels, boiler etc. Bell/Whistle placement. In general its best to get something close, and if you want to take it that step further that's where kitbashing comes in.

[thomasjmdavis]

Don't forget the Atlanta and West Point, that  had 2 copies of 1926 vintage...

Unfortunately, the nature of Steam Locomotive Acquisition makes Ready To Run Prototypical steam almost impossible outside of like the Pennsy, NYC,UP,Santa Fe. Every Railroad had their own choice of where equipment was hung on the boiler, the exact size of drive wheels, boiler etc. Bell/Whistle placement. In general its best to get something close, and if you want to take it that step further that's where kitbashing comes in.

This is indeed correct. While more locos are available in HO, the basic premise holds there too. But I do have a quibble-

In N scale, the most produced steam locos are USRA light Pacifics and Mikados. Rivarossi (sold by Atlas and Con-Cor), Model Power (China, not Trix), and BLI have all done them, and they have been available just about since day 1 of N scale in the USA, from one or another manufacturer/importer. And at various times, USRA heavy Pacifics and Mikados, along with USRA 2-10-2s, 4-8-2s (heavy and light), 0-8-0 and I think at least one 0-6-0 switcher have been available from one or more manufacturers. So, in reality, railroads that relied heavily on USRA designs might have more different, reasonably accurate wheel arrangements available than Santa Fe even NYC. The PRR modelers have been relatively blessed, but there is a reason that they call that company "Broadway Limited".

Many of us WISH that Santa Fe locomotives were mass produced in N scale. Other than the 1969 vintage tooling of the Bachmann Northern (I'll give them credit for improving the mechanism over the past 50 years, but the shell remains a rough approximation, and half are lettered for a different class altogether), I am not aware of any AT&SF steamer available in N scale.  OK, they did have a few Y3b mallets purchased second hand during WWII, and the makers of Y6b's have taken advantage of the similarities, but all told, there is not a single, ACCURATE model of an AT&SF steamer other than the brass PRB models (and 1 or 2 brass locos from other makers) that have been out of production for 30 years.

It would be so much easier if manufacturers made the domes and such as separate parts- or if after market replacement boilers were available- again, with separate parts. Designers of 3D prints seem obsessed with including ever single bit of piping and every valve on the shell, making the sanding of the shell to remove the printer artifacts a virtual impossibility. (true for diesels too).

[mmagliaro]

The questions about why some roads painted their cab roofs and tender decks red has as many answers as you have fingers on your hands.  I have yet to find a truly definitive explanation. 
My experience with the PRR:
The PRR painted a lot of roofs and decks red in the early part of the 20th century, when cab roofs were wood.  The paint was a coat of oxide red followed by coats of freight car color (the PRR's name for that brown/red color they used on their freight cars), mixed with some black.  Some people theorize that the red oxide coat helped protect the wood, but I cannot find any proof of this.   Since the PRR had a flair for style and distinctiveness in those days, I could believe they would put a finish coat in freight car color and then paint the tender deck to match, for no other reason than aesthetics.  By the time the engine ran a few hundred miles, those surfaces were covered with enough grime and soot to make them look black, so a lot of modelers just paint them black, or a mix of red and black that comes out "almost black with a hint of red".  My advice is to find a color photo of what you are modeling, if you can, and paint it the way it looks in the photo.  At least then you know your engine looks the way the real one did at some point in time.

[u18b]

Yeah.  I wish they would do the Atlanta and West Point #290 (I think) since it is still alive (though in pieces last I saw years ago).

My family road the New Georgia RR excursion in Montgomery an the 1990s.

Would love to have that model for sentimental reasons.

[Maletrain]

B&O and Southern had copies.

The B&O had light USRA Pacifics (class P-5) and "copies" of the light version (class P-6) that had Vanderbilt tenders and cast "Delta" trailing trucks that differed from the USRA design.  No USRA heavies.  The B&O "President Class" (P-7) 4-6-2s were a heavy design, but not the same as the USRA heavies.  The P-7s also had Delta trailing trucks.  A passible B&O P-7 could be made by substituting a Delta trailing truck from Bachmann parts, since the driving wheels were close to the same diameter (79" vs 80").  The B&O acquired the P-7s with what look like Bachmann "long USRA" tenders with 4-wheel trucks, but typically substituted larger tenders for the P-7s, with 6 wheel trucks and high rear decks.

As for red cab roofs and red tender decks, there has been a discussion about that on the B&O groups.io list.  There was apparently nothing official, but some divisions seem to have painted some roofs and some tender decks red on some occassions, with pictures available to prove that.

Be aware that the B&O tended to move the headlights from the smoke box door (centered) to the top of the smoke box (high) the first time they shopped locos that they acquired.  But, in later P-7 versions, the moved them back to the center of the smoke box (on the door).

[Chris333]

Just copied what Wiki said.

BTW if you should happen to want a P7d, I'm selling one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275850304502

[Maletrain]

Chris, I edited my post about the P-7s, to indicate how the differences were minor enough to model around.

[thomasjmdavis]

Not to further the argument (a moot point for me, since I don't model B&O), but curiosity led me to look at the wiki, where they do list the B&O P-7 as a 'copy' of a USRA heavy. Which inclines me to believe that Maletrain is correct, since the wiki page for the P-7 shows it having 6000 pounds more tractive effort than the USRA- hard to achieve that with a "copy".  The footnote on the listing ID'ing the P-7 as a copy lists this reference:

Drury, George (2015). Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, Revised Edition (2nd ed.). Kalmbach Publishing. ISBN 978-1-62700-259-2.

I don't have a copy of the book, so I don't want to point fingers at Mr. Drury or his editors. Wikipedia gets this sort of thing wrong as often as Kalmbach.  And it may be a fable brought on by the fact that everyone who ever made an HO heavy Pacific marketed a B&O version.  I'm sure that is true in N scale also.

Is the BLI model detailed as the Erie original, or is it made more "generic" in terms of details?

[Chris333]

I'm going to say they match Erie when delivered:
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/erie2919.jpg
But the front ladders ended up longer:
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/erie-s2919w.jpg

Possibly when Erie rebuilt the frames and cylinders they also got taller ladders.

[Maletrain]

If you look at the drawings on pages 146 and 157 of the "Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia", you will see how closely the shape of the boiler and firebox and the placement of steam and sand domes are between the USRA Heavy Pacific and the B&O P-7 "President Class" pacifics.  So, there was probably a lot of "copying" involved in the B&O orders for their engines.

But, there are substantial differences in the as-delivered details, including trailing truck construction, headlight position, etc.  So, there are easily noticed differences in even N scale models.

And, the B&O 1950s P-7e versions were highly modified from the 1927 as-delivered appearance, with the air pumps moved to the pilot deck behind shields, the headlights lowered to the center of the firebox door, and much larger, rather distinctive tenders with 6 wheel trucks.  And, in between, the B&O had streamlined 4 of them, one twice with 2 different designs, then removed the streamlining.

So, trying to buy a "prototypical" B&O heavy pacific, usually comes down to buying a brass model of one of the streamlined versions or modifying an available USRA model to look the way the B&O made their P-7s look during the era you want to model. I suspect that is roughly going to be true for any specific railroad for any specific era.  (Interestingly, the Cyclopedia drawing shows the Erie version with 6-wheel trucks on its tender, and photos show a lot of "modernizing" of their versions, too.)

At least the USRA Heavy models provide a good starting point for the P-7s.  But, my personal modeling perferences are for a location and time when those particular locos existed, but were used elsewhere.  The B&O P-1d pacifics that ruled the passenger service in my modeling location/era had distinctive boiler and firebox shapes that are not similar to anything provided in RTR models for N scale. (Sigh, maybe someday, I will be able to get or even make 3D-printed shells for B&O P-1ds and T-3bs.)

[Chris333]

The Erie heavy pacifics started getting cracked frames so they came up with a single casting that was a frame and cylinders all in one piece. They rebuilt the locos with the new frames and in most cases replace at least one driver with a disc style wheel.

Here is rebuilt 2944 (in Youngstown) before 1941 with a disc center driver and 8 wheel tender:
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/erie-s2944g17.jpg

Same loco 2944 (still in Youngstown) with all 3 disc drivers and a 12 wheel tender:
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/erie-s2944bbb.jpg

This is not one of their frames, but they looked similar:
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55e5ef3fe4b0d3b9ddaa5954/1453690937776-MPWMKQETTK82UX2TELKE/141-R_locomotive_one-piece_cast_steel_frame.jpg



https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-6-2&railroad=err#128

[Chris333]

But anyways Broadway Limited probably just used the body of their Heavy Mikado and tossed it on a 4-6-2 chassis. So that is why it is not a specific Erie loco.