Author Topic: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...  (Read 1552 times)

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robert3985

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3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« on: May 07, 2023, 02:05:44 PM »
+4
I've noticed that some here think there's been "What's interesting is that there hasn't been anything revolutionary in the last 6 months or so regarding printer tech."

So, I thought I'd comment about that.

Actually, most, if not all 3D printers that we can afford are using technology that's at least two or three decades old.  The trick is to make it available at a price level we can afford.

Years ago when I became aware of 3D resin printers (for over $100K), not much has been "new". 

What's happened is that decades old, proven technology and manufacturing have advanced to the point that real precision is now available to us for less than $500, sometimes less than $200...and resolution has improved to the point that the UV resins that are presently available, simply are unable to show a visual difference between printers having a high resolution of 22microns, 28.5microns, or even a "low" resolution of 35microns on LCD Mono machines.

DLP technology from Texas Instruments has been available for several years on commercial-grade printers for thousands of dollars, but Anycubic's partnership with them brought us the Photon Ultra, which was just as sharp as the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k LCD machine with its 22micron resolution...but both have small print envelopes, which may not be ideal for producing larger models, or production runs.

Now, Anycubic has come out with a DLP successor to their Photon Ultra with a 60% larger print volume, better resolution, but more importantly, a better slicer algorithm for anti-aliasing/blur that smooths the resultant print for significantly fewer "layer lines" (voxelization) than their original Photon Ultra.  This has caused the Ultra's price to be reduced by 52% to $289 from $599 a couple of months ago.  The successor, the Photon D2, is $599, reduced from $679.  Both offer the ultimate sharp effective resolution for consumer-grade 3D resin printing, although they are actually too sharp for some eyes, the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k still being the leader as far as getting rid of layer lines...but not by much.

Price on the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k has fallen to $449.99 from $749.99.

Differences between DLP (Digital Light Processing) and LCD or mSLA (masked stereolithography) are that LCD printers now use a single-layer (mono) LCD to mask the collimated (as much as possible) UV light, emitted by an LED source directly under the FEP film on the bottom of the resin vat.  This UV light must pass through the non-masked parts of the LCD, thru, possibly, a screen protector or protective glass screen, and through the FEP film before it hits the resin, where it hardens a layer of resin before turning off. All of this passing through layers of plastic & glass diffuses the light, making it less collimated, more blurry when it finally hits the resin. A DLP machine uses a UV LASER light source, which is reflected off of thousands of tiny mirrors to focus their reflections onto the resin in the printer's resin vat.  This UV light still must pass through a glass protector and the FEP on the bottom of the resin vat, but it is focused much more precisely than light emitted by any mSLA printer's LED UV light source.

Even though the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k mSLA printer's LCD screen is rated at 22microns, by the time the collimated UV light hits the resin in the vat, it has passed through enough layers so that the actual dot of light is much larger than 22microns...in the neighborhood of 50+ microns.  It's just the nature of mSLA LCD printers to do this because of their technology.  With the Anycubic DLP printers, the UV light emitted by its LASER source is rated with a resolution of around 52microns (I don't know the exact resolution), but that's measured at the bottom of the resin vat, since there is no LCD screen.  This means that the UV light that hits the resin in a 22micron resolution mSLA printer and a 52micron resolution DLP printer are very close to being the same resolution, the difference being that the LASER light from the DLP printer is less diffuse, making for sharper edges and more visible layer lines if no anti-aliasing/blur is used.

Right now, the very best buy on the market for the sharpest consumer class desktop 3D printer is the Anycubic Ultra DLP printer for $289, which is a helluva great price.

DLP printers also have other advantages, which include much less energy used, no cooling fan to add noise to the workshop, faster printing times, and a 20,000 hour average life span, vs a 2,000 hour average life span for a mSLA printer's LCD screen.

At this time at least one other manufacturer (Elegoo) is introducing their own DLP printer, also with the assistance of Texas Instruments...that's three (3) DLP printers available for our desktops, the newer versions with improved anti-aliasing/blur algorithms, but all have small to medium small print volumes.

However, when proper anti-aliasing/blur is applied to get rid of the layer lines, there is no discernible difference in print quality (because of the limitations of UV resins currently available) in prints made with mSLA printers with screen resolutions from a maximum of 22microns, through larger volume 8k printers with 10" screens (resolutions of 28.5microns & 29microns) to smaller "Ultra" 4k printers with 35micron screens.  DLP printers with their 52micron LASER  resolutions at the bottom of the vat also are just as sharp.

When I was making my decision to buy a new 8k printer, I wanted a larger build volume and a quality machine.  Although proper detail prints from any of the four manufacturers (Anycubic, Elegoo, Phrozen, Uniformation) of 8k 10" printers that I looked at are equal in quality, I chose the Anycubic Photon M3 Premium 10" 8k machine because of its build quality and the PRICE...on sale for $469 from $719! (unfortunately, it's back up to $579  :( )  Tests I've been watching show that there is ZERO difference in print quality between the fine resolution of the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k/Anycubic Ultra/D2 and any of the larger 10" 28.5/29 micron printers...so, I am getting a much larger print volume and equally excellent print quality as the smaller 8k/DLP printers...at an excellent price.

What I found very interesting was a recent review I watched that compared test prints made from the new Anycubic Photon Mono 2, which is Anycubic's entry level ($199) mSLA "Ultra" 4k 35micron 6.6" screen printer, to 22, 28.5micron machines, and there was no visible difference in print quality.

I think we have reached a level of technical & manufacturing excellence that "revolutionary" advances are not what is going to happen in the 3D printing hobbyist world, but incremental improvements as far as features, longevity, ease of use and safety are concerned, not to mention falling prices.

I noticed that even though the print quality was equal between the 10" 8k printers I was considering, what comprised the price differences were the features, the most feature-laden machines (Phrozen Sonic Mighty 8k & Uniformation GKtwo) coming in at around $900 ea.  The MSRP on the Anycubic Photon M3 Premium 8k was $719 with precision, quality, durability and print speed being the "features", and the lowest priced ELEGOO Saturn 2 10" 8k at $600 with the lowest build quality and fewest features.

However, it's becoming more obvious to the increasing hobbyists who have been into 3D resin printing for a while, that what is also very important for quality and near-zero print failures are things such as quality slicer apps, that allow quick work, customization, a friendly UI and improved algorithms for supports, anti-aliasing and blur, and UV resins that have a variety of qualities, such as durability, flexibility, transparency, high detail, low odor, less toxicity, longer shelf life, less temperature sensitivity, and more thorough curing.  New resins are actively being developed and the selection is MUCH greater than it was two years ago when I got into it and is going to allow me to print stuff that I wouldn't have even considered then.  Also, features on printers are going to take a leap forward if the new Uniformation GKtwo is an example.  This 8k 10.3" screen 29micron machine has many thoughtful design elements such as activated charcoal filtration, enclosed tilt-up cover, over-center print plate attachment lever, anti-drip lip on an innovative resin vat, simple push-in locking mechanism for the vat with no tightening of bolts necessary, quick LCD changing, excellent UI, future wireless, on-board memory so that your file is loaded into the machine so your print won't fail if the flash drive fails, USB drive slot and on/off switch on the front of the machine (why is that so hard for most manufacturers to do???) and, an integral vat heater to keep your resin at its optimal temperature independent of a too-cold room. Correspondingly, it is also the most expensive of all of the four 10" printers I looked at, with no discounts being offered at this time.

Nope, there's nothing "revolutionary" about any of the tech, nor the features, but what may be classified as "revolutionary" is that manufacturers are coming to the realization that convenience features, thoughtful printer design and safety features will make a difference as far as what is considered an entry level machine and an advanced machine...not the print quality.

On the 15th of this month, Anycubic is introducing their new 10" super-high resolution mSLA printer (the Photon Mono M5s) with a 19micron resolution screen, auto-leveling, a new more user-friendly UI and other features they haven't specified yet.  I'm looking forward to seeing if there's any discernible benefit to a 19micron resolution, which makes it the highest resolution printer on the market.  Both a high volume print envelope AND the highest resolution at the same time!  Who'd a thunk it??  :D  I guess that's still just "evolutionary"...not "revolutionary"...but the difference is getting harder to see!  Now, if they'd have just included a vat heater.....  :trollface:

Now is a great time to get a printer that will do what we as model railroad hobbyists want, and waiting longer for new technology to appear seems counter-intuitive to me, since there's always gonna be something "better"... 

I think NOW is the time to bite the bullet and get into it.

If y'all have any opinions, I'd like to hear 'em...

Photo (1) - Here's my setup...



Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore



   

« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 03:40:21 PM by robert3985 »

Chris333

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2023, 03:38:07 PM »
0
The problem with all the videos comparing the resolution of this printer vs. that printer are they all use war game figures that are very busy, mostly round surfaces. But yeah I doubt going from 35 to 28 microns will result in a shocking change.

I need a new printer right now and would have ordered a DLP a few days ago, but I can't slice with Chitubox.

John

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2023, 03:56:52 PM »
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but I can't slice with Chitubox.

why not .. ??? also the new slicer from Anycubic actually works pretty well

Chris333

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2023, 04:05:42 PM »
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I guess it is on there, most of their new stuff isn't on Chitubox yet. I just remember hating the Anycubic Workshop. I do know a Sonic Mini 8k file will not work on a Sonic Mini 8ks. I'm just pissed I spent $700 on a machine and then another $150 trying to fix it and it still doesn't work. And the company cannot tell me what is wrong with it.

John

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2023, 04:08:23 PM »
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Ok .. I misunderstood .. the new anycubic afaik only works on their systems .. Lychee slicer has a huge following and supports a wide range of printers -- have you given it a try?

Chris333

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2023, 04:13:24 PM »
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I tried Lychee and cannot figure out how to flip my model over to add the supports. The only way it works it would be like putting a car up on a lift and look up. I'm used to just flipping the model over and looking down on it.

mramsey

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2023, 04:21:46 PM »
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DLP printers also have other advantages, which include much less energy used, no cooling fan to add noise to the workshop, faster printing times, and a 20,000 hour average life span, vs a 2,000 hour average life span for a mSLA printer's LCD screen.
One of the research projects I manage at my day job is an immersive workspace that uses 9 DLP short throw wall screen projectors.  The DLP chip and associated illuminator LEDs were specified to have a 20,000 hour lifetimes.  The DLP chips are now failing after 6 years and roughly 3000 hours of use, and that part of the projector is not serviceable.  We're scrapping them and going with large LCDs.  Probably not a comparable application, but I'm a bit skeptical of TIs stated lifetime after this experience.

robert3985

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2023, 05:24:40 PM »
+1
The problem with all the videos comparing the resolution of this printer vs. that printer are they all use war game figures that are very busy, mostly round surfaces. But yeah I doubt going from 35 to 28 microns will result in a shocking change.

I need a new printer right now and would have ordered a DLP a few days ago, but I can't slice with Chitubox.

The reviewer who influenced me the most is FauxHammer here:
who claims that "balanced" prints on any of the printers he's tested from the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k, the 10" 8k printers and the new Anycubic Photon Mono 2, and he's printing posts & holes, saying the minimum diameter post he's been able to print on any of them is about 50microns...which is 0.00197" (0.315 inches in 1/160th scale).   

What he claims is that there's no discernible difference between resolutions from 22microns to the 35micron resolution of the Photon Mono 2's "Ultra" 4k screen...and has done the testing to prove it.

I'll be looking forward to his review of the new Anycubic Photon M5s with its 19micron resolution, but I doubt there's gonna be much improvement over 22microns.

One of the printer features that will minimize layer lines is the Z resolution of your printer, which is one of the reason I bought the Anycubic Photon M3 Premium 8k...because of its precision Z-axis double-threaded rod which give the M3 a 5 micron accuracy, minimizing layer lines with a Z resolution that is half of a "normal" T-rod's accuracy of 10 microns. There's more to resolution that mere horizontal X-Y resolution. The Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k's Z-axis accuracy is 10 microns, twice that of the Photon M3 Premium's, so yes, its horizontal resolution is higher, but its vertical accuracy is twice as tall. This might make a difference in a finished print that's actually discernible as far as layer lines go. 

Since I got my resin (finally) only a few days ago, I haven't done any printing yet with my new printer.  That will change this week.

Frankly, I'm surprised at the problems you're having with your Mini 8k since it has such a great reputation.  It looks to me as if there are dust specks or maybe cured resin spots on your FEP.  Since you changed out your LCD and that didn't make much of a difference, I'd change out your FEP (if you haven't already done that) to see if that cures the problem.  Another way might be to add some AA and/or blur if you're not doing so since the holes are so friggin' small in diameter, which might make them close up, and/or slightly increase your exposure.

Good luck!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 05:34:07 PM by robert3985 »

robert3985

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2023, 05:31:58 PM »
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One of the research projects I manage at my day job is an immersive workspace that uses 9 DLP short throw wall screen projectors.  The DLP chip and associated illuminator LEDs were specified to have a 20,000 hour lifetimes.  The DLP chips are now failing after 6 years and roughly 3000 hours of use, and that part of the projector is not serviceable.  We're scrapping them and going with large LCDs.  Probably not a comparable application, but I'm a bit skeptical of TIs stated lifetime after this experience.

That's interesting!  I'm wondering how much of a problem it would be to change out a DLP printer's DMD as opposed to changing an LCD, which in some mSLA printers is quite easy.

That's good to know, but service life wasn't really a deciding factor for me, because by the time I've used up 20,000 hours on a printer, there'll be something new and better I'll be wanting!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Chris333

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2023, 05:46:44 PM »
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I saw that video and yeah I agree you won't see a difference. One of my first at home prints on the original Photon I tried using 0.02mm layers and got sagging around openings. So I switched to 0.05mm (50 micron) layers and every print I've done on 4 different machines since has been 0.05mm layers. But hey if you figure out a way I'll listen.  :lol:

If you search here you'll see how I beefed up the Sonic Mini 4K to stop it from flexing and that machine was working fine till the screen went out. I changed the screen and kept getting print failures using the same files that where still on the stick. I thought it might be the LED was dying, but could find no info on how to check it. It will still print, but I need to manually stop the print and change the exposure to raise it. That got old real quick so I bought the Sonic Mini 8K.

The very first print I accidently put a hole in the FEP and a tiny bit of resin got on the screen and I scraped it off. The whole print had the tiny holes in them and I thought I had damaged the screen so I bought a new screen after only 1 print. New screen does the same thing at a lessor level. I'm just tired of dodging pot holes. Phrozen told me to loosen the Z rail bolts and re-tighten them to help straighten the rail. What the heck does that have to do with the screen? Facebook is full of people saying Phrozen was no help to them.

Might buy either the M5 on May 15th or the 8Ks on May 17th.

wvgca

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2023, 05:48:31 PM »
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i can't comment on the 'newer' printers much ... i'm still using a filament printer from maybe eight years ago [still works good for HO] and a resin printer from maybe six years ago ..
i use the filament quite a bit more as it's a lot less 'fussy', no cleanup really, no post curing, [i use sunlight, no uv chamber, ]
the filament is a prusa clone with a heated bed and auto zero, the resin is some kind of a clone, but i can't remember offhand what it is ..  both of them were only around a hundred each ..

peteski

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2023, 10:31:05 PM »
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i can't comment on the 'newer' printers much ... i'm still using a filament printer from maybe eight years ago [still works good for HO] and a resin printer from maybe six years ago ..
i use the filament quite a bit more as it's a lot less 'fussy', no cleanup really, no post curing, [i use sunlight, no uv chamber, ]
the filament is a prusa clone with a heated bed and auto zero, the resin is some kind of a clone, but i can't remember offhand what it is ..  both of them were only around a hundred each ..

Well, this is like comparing applies and oranges.  Only thing is common between filament and SLA printers is that they are both 3D printers.  Just like applies and oranges are both fruits.

The guys here using the SLA printers use them for printing N scale car bodies with fine details and curved surfaces, or other tiny very fine parts.  Filament printer would nor produce anything close to the resolution and surface finish needed for those prints.
. . . 42 . . .

haasmarc

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2023, 07:24:11 PM »
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Chris,

Sorry to hear about your issues with your mini 8k.  Mine has worked great since I got it last November.  A buddy of mine saw the prints I was getting and he bought one and has not had any problems either.

I wonder if you have a board problem and it just doesn't tell the screen to light those pixels ever.  Or maybe the connector between the screen and the board has some issue since you said changing the screen made some improvement.
Marc Haas
Keeping the Reading alive in N scale!

Chris333

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2023, 07:55:01 PM »
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I thought about the motherboard, but can't find them for sale.

robert3985

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Re: 3D Printing Technology Opinions & Comments...
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2023, 02:11:44 PM »
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I thought about the motherboard, but can't find them for sale.

I've talked about your problem to a few people who should know what just about any printing problems cause was, and they all agree they've never seen or heard of anything like what you're experiencing.  Since this happened since your very first print, and that you've replaced both things (LCD & FEP) that should normally be causing the problem, I would venture a guess that it's the MoBo.

IMHO Phrozen should be willing to send you a new one at no cost, since the logical conclusion is that it's the problem, along with new cables too just in case.

If I were them, I'd be right on this problem, because losing a customer wouldn't be in the works for me.

In any case, there are other choices now, which is good, but you really shouldn't have to spend any more to get this problem solved.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore