Author Topic: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S  (Read 5114 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2023, 10:11:54 AM »
0
They show the build plate coming down into the vat. Then when it hits the bottom of the vat. The vat and some plate on top of the machine get pushed down with springs.

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3124
  • Respect: +1502
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2023, 11:56:43 AM »
0
I'd be more excited if the Anycubic Mono M5s had the same twin activated charcoal air filters as their Photon M3 Premium 8k, with the same larger resin vat, and an integral vat heater.

As for "auto-leveling" I haven't had any problems leveling my build plates on any machine I've had.

More resolution is cool, but (and I may be wrong) I'm don't think today's resins are capable of defining horizontal resolutions much below 35 to 30 microns with the inherent light-diffusing properties of mSLA printers and their LCD screens.

DLP printers, which Anycubic has two on the market right now, have "resolutions" that are nowhere near a 19, 22, 28.5 or 35 micron resolutions of most "new" mSLA printers on the market right now.  The original Anycubic Ultra has a resolution of (rounded off) 80 microns, and the newer Anycubic D2 has a resolution (rounded off) of 64 microns.  This is measured at the bottom of the resin vat, whereas mSLA printers' resolutions are measure by what their LCD's produce, not at the bottom of the resin vat.

DLP printer's UV light is produced by a LASER, which means it is "Coherent Light" meaning basically that the light waves are traveling perfectly parallel to each other, are exactly the same wavelength, and are phase-sychronized.  On the other hand, the latest mSLA printers' light is produced by a COB (Chip On Board) source that is supposed to be brighter, last longer and consumes less power than a conventional LED source....but, the light is NOT anywhere near to being "coherent", which is why mSLA manufacturers apply several ways to make the UV light that goes through the LCD, the screen protector, and the FEP on the bottom of the resin vat, into light that is "collimated"...traveling in the same direction, but nowhere near being only one wavelength nor being phase-synchronized.  This means that it is much more easily diffused since it is already somewhat diffused, and focuses much less sharply than LASER generated coherent light.

So, when looking at test results, it's pretty obvious that present-day consumer-grade DLP resin printers print sharper than the very best mSLA printers do...in fact, that very sharpness accentuates the "layer lines"...not really applicable to DLP printers, which produce cubic "voxels" but which, visually, are manifest as "layer lines"...not exactly the same, but practically, close enough.  Collimated light from mSLA printers has to travel a short distance from the LCD through air, through the FEP film to the resin, and in that short distance, the effective resolution is greatly reduced.

How much is "greatly reduced"??  From a practical standpoint, the first consumer-grade DLP printer manufactured by Anycubic (the Photon Ultra) has a resolution (at the focal point located on the FEP film on the bottom of the resin vat) of 80microns.  The mSLA printer, the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k has a resolution (at the LCD) of 22microns.  When prints from both printers are visually compared for sharpness under magnification, the Anycubic Photon Ultra is noticeably sharper...meaning edges are more angular, straights straighter.  This means that practical resolution, AT THE FEP FILM, for mSLA printers is much less than their resolution AT THEIR LCD's, probably being, for a 22micron machine, somewhere in the 90micron range.

The newer Anycubic Photon D2 has increased both build-plate size and improved resolution to 64microns, an improvement of (if my math is correct) of 20% over the original Photon Ultra.

Another advantage of DLP printers over mSLA printers is that in DLP printers, the LASER goes on when exposing, then turns off until the next exposure.  With mSLA printers, the light source is always on, and because the dark parts of an LCD are not perfectly opaque, this adds even more light diffusion into the mSLA equation, making for even less light accuracy at where it counts...at the FEP film at the bottom of the resin vat.

However, for us model railroaders, sharpness alone isn't what we need.  Since the stuff we want for our railroads has plenty of curved surfaces, like car roofs, boilers, domes, etc., we need fewer, or actually NO layer lines.  This is where Anti-Aliasing and Blur come into the picture...which means selective, controllable fuzziness.

Since mSLA printers already are pretty fuzzy, Anti-Aliasing (AA) is much easier to produce than with DLP machines, which is why the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k machine has been so popular with modelers.  Its prints are plenty "sharp enough", and it's pretty easy to control layer-lines by messing with various slicing apps' AA and Blur capabilities.  DLP printers, on the other hand, because of their inherent sharpness and cubic voxels, are more difficult to make more fuzzy, which is why one of Anycubic's selling points for their newer Photon D2 is that their slicing app has more AA capability for that machine, or more fuzziness is possible than with the original Photon Ultra.

All of this is why I'm not very impressed with the new Anycubic Photon M5s's 19micron resolution...because I don't think I'm gonna be able to actually SEE the 3micron improvement over the Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k's 22micron resolution, since I can't see the 22micron resolution's improvement over newer 10" machines' 28.5micron resolution.

So, how much in inches IS a 3micron improvement?? Since a micron (1/1000th of a millimeter) is 0.0000393701 inches, multiply that by 3 which equals 0.0001181103", or basically one ten-thousandths of an inch.  One ten-thousandths of an inch in N-scale is basically 1/64th of an N-scale inch.

Are we going to be able to see an N-scale 1/64th of an inch improvement??  I highly doubt it...especially after painting, decaling, sealing & weathering.

The next question is: "Is any present-day UV resin capable of rendering details of 3microns?"  I don't think so.

So, c'mon manufacturers, give us 3D printers that have USB ports and on/off switches on the front, larger control screens, better UI's, larger & stiffer & better bearings/rails, double-threaded rods, more convenient vat attachment, more practical and convenient build plate attachment & leveling, bigger wash & cure machines that'll take the larger build plates, much more durable & detail capturing resins that are also much less toxic, conveniently replaceable LCD screens, larger vats with etched volume markings, precision and reliable integral vat heating, more convenient air filtration and venting, more capable slicer apps, and lastly, larger DLP machines.

I think we're going to see many of these items coming up in the next couple of years, with "resolution" taking a back seat since we're nearly at the practical limit for it now since why have it if you can't see it???

In fact, I think that we're at the practical limit for mSLA right now, and that larger DLP machines are already being developed that are in that sweet-spot of 10" diagonal build X-Y size and will become "the standard" because of their other advantages, such as a much better MTBF, less power consumption and much better recovery from resin spills.

That's my rant...  :trollface:

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore



 

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3124
  • Respect: +1502
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2023, 12:06:19 PM »
0
They show the build plate coming down into the vat. Then when it hits the bottom of the vat. The vat and some plate on top of the machine get pushed down with springs.

Oh yeah...I saw that when I looked at it again.  An interesting solution to a problem that doesn't exist IMO. 

I think there has to be more to it than merely a spring-loaded LCD and that the video is probably highly simplified.

Maybe we'll learn more when it's officially introduced on Monday, but we'll probably have to wait until it's fully reviewed...which may not be too long as I'm sure there are reviewers who have had this machine for a while already.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2023, 12:20:53 PM »
+2
Yes most people on Facebook think the self leveling is something not needed. Most people haven't leveled their machine since the day they were new.

I never like Anycubic's Workshop slicer and have been using Chitubox. Chitu is the company that makes most of the motherboards for these printers.

I don't need any filter at all. I cannot smell the resin unless I lift the cover off and take a deep breath.

My "wash and cure" is 2 toss away plastic containers and a UV light made for curing finger nail polish.

Someone commented that they won't buy a M5s until they know the cost of a new screen.

The only thing I'm waiting for to happen with 3D resin printers is finding a better way than using a FEP. Or maybe a software that can make up for it. Like knowing when surface tension will change and altering the exposure time only at those layers. If they know what the image is at each layer they should be able to predict harsh changes. I replaced my old Photon screen with one from Epax (I think) there were all the same back then. Now they just keep making the screens bigger and bigger and more specific.

I'm just waiting on the price for the M5s. I mean if it is only $300 bucks then 19 microns is the way to go  :lol:

Lemosteam

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 5919
  • Gender: Male
  • PRR, The Standard Railroad of my World
  • Respect: +3666
    • Designer at Keystone Details
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2023, 05:25:46 PM »
0
When the print screws up and some hardened resin gets between the build placate and FEP, the machine can press so hard that it can crack the screen. This is more of a soft landing for the build plate in thos cases.

Chris I agree. The machine should have layer by layer capability.

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2023, 05:35:10 PM »
0
Back to the 8Ks, notice him changing out his screen of the old 8K...

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2023, 05:01:13 PM »
0
I watched the Anycubic livestream this morning. There is a new M5 and M5s. They were pretty vague, but said the M5s is for speed and the M5 is for detail, but both use the same screen. They also talked about "fast" resin. So it sounds like mostly firmware. And they kept talking about a new slicer, but what does that have to do with the printer?

They also said the screen adjusts to the build plate not the build plate adjusting to the screen, but again would not get into details.

Both are Early Bird for $399.

Not sure I trust the bouncy screen to stay in alignment.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 06:32:54 PM by Chris333 »

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3124
  • Respect: +1502
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2023, 06:26:53 PM »
0
I watched the Anycubic livestream this morning. There is a new M5 and M5s. They were pretty vague, but said the M5s is for speed and the M5 is for detail, but both use the same screen. They also talked about "fast" resin. So it sounds like mostly firmware. And they kept talking about a new slicer, but what does that have to do with the printer?

They also said the screen adjusts to the build plate not the build plate adjusting to the screen, but again would not get into details.

Both are Early Bird for $399.

Not sure I trust the bouncy screen to stay in alinement.

/>

Yeah, I saw the "official introduction" too, and besides the sound being horrible and the presenter's French accent making all of it nearly unintelligible, I am not too impressed.

However, I AM impressed with the price, even if it is an Early Bird price, which is damn good for the resolution, dual rails, improved UI and increased speed.  Other features??  I'll have to wait for a more comprehensive review.

I'm also not too sure about the bouncy screen...but, I have to admit that I think Anycubic wouldn't have introduced it if they didn't have the bugs worked out.  Another wait until a more thorough review.

But, I AM going to sign up for the giveaway if it isn't too late...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2023, 04:06:14 PM »
0
I just ordered a Sonic Mini 8Ks, came to $270 total. That is only $110 more than the replacement screen for my 8K.  If it wasn't for the bouncy screen I would have bought the M5s or M5.

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2023, 04:10:34 PM »
0
FWIW I just read the M5s pixels are 19x23 microns...  :P

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3124
  • Respect: +1502
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2023, 07:29:26 AM »
0
Looks like the the new 8k 22micron offering and the Anycubic 12k 19micron offering are getting pretty good reviews. 

Probably the best thing is that the prices on both machines are much lower than I expected, although that won't affect me much since I am extremely happy with my test prints and the products I'm getting off of my new Anycubic Photon M3 Premium.

I've been running full build-plate product runs to pay for my machine, and as of yesterday, it is now totally paid for...both the M3 and the new Wash & Cure Plus...as well as two 1.5kg bags of Anycubic Standard+ Grey Resin it took to make all of the N-scale Track soldering tools for my customer.

Photo (1) - Tools tools tools...not a single failure so far with the new Anycubic M3 Premium...


This week I'll be finishing up a couple of 3D models for some detail parts I'm planning on...and printing them.  Gonna try out some resin combinations for retaining detail and strength/flexibility.

Should be fun!

Still waiting on an in-depth review to see if 19micron resolution offers any visible benefits.  If so, I could see a second 10" printer on the workbench offering high detail, high print speed and good production volume as an asset for what I'm planning.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

JeffB

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +187
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2023, 08:32:46 AM »
0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZBF7lazq8

A review of the Sonic Mini-8KS

The reviewer seems to think that any more than 22 micron resolution is not advantageous.  Don't recall his exact comment on that, but looking at photos of the prints off the Mini-8K and Mini-8KS, I think you'd be hard pressed to see an advantage of a finer resolution than that. 

That said...  Buy whatever you want.  I'm not sure if that I wouldn't buy a new printer if they ever offered resolution in the 12-15 micron range, even if you couldn't see the different between that and 22.

JB

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2023, 06:08:28 PM »
+1
Got the notice that my Mini 8Ks has shipped. A few people have said it is not as good as the 8K, but this guy after 1 month says it is the best printer he has ever had:
/>
The guy even printed a suction cup to try and make it fail!

I'm just glad these printers are so cheap now especially at a time when a freakin' bottle of Coke is $2.50.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 06:10:52 PM by Chris333 »

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3124
  • Respect: +1502
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2023, 07:43:30 PM »
0
Got the notice that my Mini 8Ks has shipped. A few people have said it is not as good as the 8K, but this guy after 1 month says it is the best printer he has ever had:
/>
The guy even printed a suction cup to try and make it fail!

I'm just glad these printers are so cheap now especially at a time when a freakin' bottle of Coke is $2.50.

Cool! I think at this point you can't go wrong with most any 8k, 9k, or 12k printer... or any of the current two DLP printers.  I'm very happy with the parts I'm getting with my Anycubic M3 Premium 8k and I haven't had a single print failure since I got the machine three months ago...as opposed to my Original Photon two and a half years ago.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Chris333

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 18392
  • Respect: +5662
Re: New Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k S
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2023, 08:21:53 PM »
+1
Don't know if it's true or not, but thought I read how the Anycubic M5 does not have the auto leveling that the M5s has. To me that would make the M5 the better of the two. That springy screen is why I didn't buy an M5s. Yeah I was going to buy both-8Ks and M5s.

Those new ACF films might make older printers even better, but they seem pricey. Like $70 for one ACF film, funny because you can buy a whole machine with ACF for the price of 5 ACF's. But hopefully the film price will come down once more places have them in stock.