Author Topic: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment  (Read 2663 times)

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sd45elect2000

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2023, 07:52:43 AM »
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The loose wheel narrative was highly suspect, at least to me. It’s not uncommon to find loose wheels AFTER a derailment.

Randy

Lenny53

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2023, 08:15:05 AM »
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it appears that NSC violated an agreement with the NTSB not to disclose information discovered during the investigation ..

AAR cleared the coil cars on April 10th after NS scape-goated the NSC cars to deflect from the poor make up of the train.  What evidence do you have that NSC disclosed any info prematurely?

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/national-steel-car-steel-coil-car-wheelsets-didnt-play-role-in-norfolk-southern-derailment/

signalmaintainer

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2023, 08:57:51 AM »
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AAR cleared the coil cars on April 10th after NS scape-goated the NSC cars to deflect from the poor make up of the train.  What evidence do you have that NSC disclosed any info prematurely?

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/national-steel-car-steel-coil-car-wheelsets-didnt-play-role-in-norfolk-southern-derailment/

The NTSB came out and stated NSC violated some form of coordinating partners agreement in which all announcements would go through the NTSB. If I were the CEO of NSC and NS had scapegoated my business, I'd probably tell the NTSB to pound sand as well. NSC in its statement was more than polite to NS given the circumstances, NS still being a customer.
NSMR #1975, RMR #4

Lenny53

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2023, 09:49:29 AM »
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The NTSB came out and stated NSC violated some form of coordinating partners agreement in which all announcements would go through the NTSB. If I were the CEO of NSC and NS had scapegoated my business, I'd probably tell the NTSB to pound sand as well. NSC in its statement was more than polite to NS given the circumstances, NS still being a customer.

My take away is if the NTSB has an issue it is with the AAR which NSC was responding to.

ridinshotgun

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2023, 10:59:11 AM »
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it appears that NSC violated an agreement with the NTSB not to disclose information discovered during the investigation ..

And then the NTSB says not so fast NSC:

Quote
”In a statement [April 14], National Steel Car claimed its steel coil wheelsets were cleared from involvement in the derailment,” the agency said. “However, the NTSB has not ruled out the role that the wheelsets may or may not have played in the derailment at this point in the investigation. The constraints placed on the release of information by party members exist to prevent the uncoordinated release of investigative information.

Lenny53

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2023, 11:04:17 AM »
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And then the NTSB says not so fast NSC:

Cleared 4 days prior - "the AAR’s Wheels, Axles, Bearings and Lubrication Committee voted in an April 10 emergency meeting to cancel the equipment advisory covering the National Steel Cars"

ridinshotgun

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2023, 11:11:50 AM »
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Cleared 4 days prior - "the AAR’s Wheels, Axles, Bearings and Lubrication Committee voted in an April 10 emergency meeting to cancel the equipment advisory covering the National Steel Cars"

Point me to the exact wording where the NTSB exonerated NSC.  That is who lays blame and they in no way shape or form have said such a thing yet.

Lenny53

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2023, 01:07:05 PM »
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Point me to the exact wording where the NTSB exonerated NSC.  That is who lays blame and they in no way shape or form have said such a thing yet.

They didn't, it was the AAR finding that did, and the NTSB hasn't said boo about it!

lock4244

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2023, 02:02:15 PM »
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I remember hanging out trackside with a yardmaster who used to enjoy spotting marshalling violations on passing freights. As I recall, as many involved tankcars as they did empty flatcars, particularly long ones. This was some time before DPU's became the norm, but it was always relevant to place empties towards the rear should you have an emergency brake application or a heavy slack run in. I recall reading of a derailment on SOO in the 1980's that was attributed to empty 89' flats being towards the head end during an emergency brake application. This lead to new marshalling instructions for yards and I imagine a places where SOO interchanged entire trains with other roads.

It would be interesting to see the rules governing train make up and DPU placement on the PSR roads. I doubt they all say "Priority to be given to maintenance of asset velocity above all other considerations".

nkalanaga

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2023, 01:20:13 AM »
+1
Empties near the front of the train, especially long empties, have always been discouraged where sharp curves are common, but I never thought of grade changes on straight track as being a problem.  As trains get longer and heavier, it makes sense.
N Kalanaga
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pedro

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2023, 07:44:10 AM »
+1
On BNSF it falls under SSI item 47, and it runs to about five pages. I’m not going to post it verbatim but it covers things like  long car/short car placement, location of empties, location of spine cars, etc. It breaks things down in great detail and has different rules by train type, subdivision, distributed power etc.

I would say it is one of the big “gotcha” rules for train crews. Usually there is an auto-generated warning on the work order that calls out train makeup exceptions, but we often find ourselves breaking out the calculator (and the rulebook) to double check it. The rules vary by railroad so we have to switch interchange trains out sometimes as well. You can also get yourself in trouble by doing pickups and setouts en route as that changes your consist.

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2023, 01:36:10 PM »
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On BNSF it falls under SSI item 47, and it runs to about five pages. I’m not going to post it verbatim but it covers things like  long car/short car placement, location of empties, location of spine cars, etc. It breaks things down in great detail and has different rules by train type, subdivision, distributed power etc.

I would say it is one of the big “gotcha” rules for train crews. Usually there is an auto-generated warning on the work order that calls out train makeup exceptions, but we often find ourselves breaking out the calculator (and the rulebook) to double check it. The rules vary by railroad so we have to switch interchange trains out sometimes as well. You can also get yourself in trouble by doing pickups and setouts en route as that changes your consist.

This seems like such an easy problem to solve digitally. I'm sure the only reason it hasn't been yet is because "implementation cost > cleanup costs".

pedro

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2023, 04:21:37 PM »
+1
This seems like such an easy problem to solve digitally. I'm sure the only reason it hasn't been yet is because "implementation cost > cleanup costs".

It partially has been. As they say, “There’s an app for that.”  On our company issued iPads is a train makeup app that asks a series of questions to get you mostly sorted out. It’s still a complex set of rules and easy to make a mistake. And there is still the ability to operate some trains out of compliance but at a reduced speed.

pedro

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Re: Possible cause for Springfield OH derailment
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2023, 04:26:39 PM »
+1
Forgot to add that the AEI readers will update your consist and that update gets “pushed” to PTC and the electronic copy of the work order on the iPad.

Lenny53

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