Rapido Canadian: rollability fix!!

[nkalanaga]

The problem with Unitrack, and most modular setups, isn't the wheels.  It isn't even the track.  It's that the wheels and track are built to two different standards!

ESM, and most lo-pro wheels, assume track built to fairly high standards.  The flangeways match the flange width, the gauge is within narrow tolerances, the joints are smooth, turnout points fit properly.

Unitrack, and most older commercial track, is still designed for what used to be European NEM standards, the pizza-cutter flanges.  These tend to have wide treads, so track gauge isn't critical; deeper flanges, so rough joints don't lift the opposite-side flanges over the rails; and the deep flanges help with poorly fitting points.

Nothing wrong with either one, as long as the track and wheels are matched. 

[simsuper80]

Welp, I apologize if I have mislead people. These ESM wheels make these cars roll better than kato superliners, but if they are not compatible with passenger cars, then I am not sure what else I can do.

[bbussey]

I didn't say ESM wheelsets were incompatible with passenger cars.  I said they are not designed for models that utilize a split-axle wheelset.  They work just fine in Micro-Trains passenger equipment.  Maybe a split-axle is something we will explore in the future, but the market is small.  Kato split-axle wheelsets look acceptable and work well in Kato models, so there is no urgency to upgrade them.  Rapido has not standardized on an axle length for their passenger or freight models, so it becomes more difficult to address any perceived shortcomings in their wheetsets with a mass-market solution.

[peteski]

Welp, I apologize if I have mislead people. These ESM wheels make these cars roll better than kato superliners, but if they are not compatible with passenger cars, then I am not sure what else I can do.

Not that they are incompatible with passenger cars -- they just don't deal well with inferior trackwork.  ESM wheels (along with other semi-scale low-profile flange and narrower treads) will work well with well-laid trackwork.  Judging by how well they sell out, there are many modelers (including on this forum) who use those wheels successfully (on all sorts of rolling stock).  You yourself have been telling us is that they work fine on well laid track, but derail on less-than-stellar trackwork.  That's to be expected.

I'm really puzzled as to why the Rapido wheels are so bad, but I don't have that set.

[simsuper80]

Not that they are incompatible with passenger cars -- they just don't deal well with inferior trackwork.  ESM wheels (along with other semi-scale low-profile flange and narrower treads) will work well with well-laid trackwork.  Judging by how well they sell out, there are many modelers (including on this forum) who use those wheels successfully (on all sorts of rolling stock).  You yourself have been telling us is that they work fine on well laid track, but derail on less-than-stellar trackwork.  That's to be expected.

I'm really puzzled as to why the Rapido wheels are so bad, but I don't have that set.

I will say that they work well for the most part, And after adding weight to one of the cars, it no longer de-railed on a particular section of the club layout. (I haven't ran a weighted car around the layout just yet however)

[bbussey]

Just for grins and giggles. I compared a Kato passenger wheelset with a Rapido Canadian-era wheelset.  I don't have the Canadian, but I do have one of the Canadian-style Skyline domes decorated for Delaware & Hudson.  The Kato axle length is .557", while the Rapido axle length is .537".  So a Kato option is out.

HOWEVER ... when I first put the beautifully-decorated D&H dome on the track, it was a lead-sled as well.  The problem isn't the Rapido wheelsets.  The problem is that relief on the bottom of the centersill makes contact with the axle tubing on the outer wheelsets that serves as the insulator between the wheels.  The Canadian cars share this flaw.  All you need to do is remove the truck and either file down or carve out with an X-Acto enough material for the outer axles to spin freely.  (Edit — it appears on one of the trucks I had to remove some material under the inner axle as well.)  Once I did that, the dome rolled as freely as a marble on glass.  Rapido loves to put uber detail on the bottom of their passenger cars.  I don't run my cars upside-down, so I couldn't care any less about underbody detail, as long as the detail visible from the side when the cars are upright is still intact.



Modify the centersill underneath the outer axles on your Canadian cars as I did, and your operational problems should cease.

 

[Angus Shops]

Just for grins and giggles. I compared a Kato passenger wheelset with a Rapido Canadian-era wheelset.  I don't have the Canadian, but I do have one of the Canadian-style Skyline domes decorated for Delaware & Hudson.  The Kato axle length is .557", while the Rapido axle length is .537".  So a Kato option is out.

HOWEVER ... when I first put the beautifully-decorated D&H dome on the track, it was a lead-sled as well.  The problem isn't the Rapido wheelsets.  The problem is that relief on the bottom of the centersill makes contact with the axle tubing on the outer wheelsets that serves as the insulator between the wheels.  The Canadian cars share this flaw.  All you need to do is remove the truck and either file down or carve out with an X-Acto enough material for the outer axles to spin freely.  (Edit — it appears on one of the trucks I had to remove some material under the inner axle as well.)  Once I did that, the dome rolled as freely as a marble on glass.  Rapido loves to put uber detail on the bottom of their passenger cars.  I don't run my cars upside-down, so I couldn't care any less about underbody detail, as long as the detail visible from the side when the cars are upright is still intact.



Modify the centersill underneath the outer axles on your Canadian cars as I did, and your operational problems should cease.

Exactly. This has been discussed before, and while I agree purchasers shouldn’t really have to go to this effort, it’s a pretty simple fix. My cars roll as well as any other manufactures now. I think I found that there was also some interference from some plumbing on one of the car types (the coach, IIRC) as well. I also “fixed” the problem with the flicker lights - I’m not a big fan of interior lighting, so I took out the springs that conduct the power up to the light boards.

[Dwight in Toronto]

Hey Bryan, congrats on getting your Rapido coach to roll so nicely (oh, how I wish!). 

Your “milling” of the centre sill was precisely the initial fix as prescribed by Rapido when the problems were first reported (and which they carried out on my set under warranty).  And as Angus Shops pointed out, some plumbing bits that were interfering on some cars were trimmed away as well. 

Although my coaches are now better than what I experienced out of the box, not one of them rolls anywhere near as nicely as your “marble on glass” analogy.  Two of them I would consider acceptable, and the other eight are what I am calling usable.  Now, on the other hand, all twelve of my Kato ‘Daylight’ coaches are stellar performers indeed in this regard.  Superior design and fabrication, I suppose.

[simsuper80]

Just for grins and giggles. I compared a Kato passenger wheelset with a Rapido Canadian-era wheelset.  I don't have the Canadian, but I do have one of the Canadian-style Skyline domes decorated for Delaware & Hudson.  The Kato axle length is .557", while the Rapido axle length is .537".  So a Kato option is out.

HOWEVER ... when I first put the beautifully-decorated D&H dome on the track, it was a lead-sled as well.  The problem isn't the Rapido wheelsets.  The problem is that relief on the bottom of the centersill makes contact with the axle tubing on the outer wheelsets that serves as the insulator between the wheels.  The Canadian cars share this flaw.  All you need to do is remove the truck and either file down or carve out with an X-Acto enough material for the outer axles to spin freely.  (Edit — it appears on one of the trucks I had to remove some material under the inner axle as well.)  Once I did that, the dome rolled as freely as a marble on glass.  Rapido loves to put uber detail on the bottom of their passenger cars.  I don't run my cars upside-down, so I couldn't care any less about underbody detail, as long as the detail visible from the side when the cars are upright is still intact.



Modify the centersill underneath the outer axles on your Canadian cars as I did, and your operational problems should cease.

Hmm. Do you think it is necessary in my case in order to get mine to not de-rail? Because they already roll very nicely.

[bbussey]

This is the solution to your original problem. It’s up to you whether or not to implement it.

[nkalanaga]

Does anyone make plastic tubing with the same inside diameter as ESM axles?  If so, making ones own split-axle wheelsets wouldn't be hard, and, by adjusting the tube length, one could fit any truck width.

[peteski]

Does anyone make plastic tubing with the same inside diameter as ESM axles?  If so, making ones own split-axle wheelsets wouldn't be hard, and, by adjusting the tube length, one could fit any truck width.

I seem to recall that @Lemosteam made those muffs available in 3D printed version on Shapeways (or on his website). Well I think they were for FVM wheels, but  suspect they both use same diameter axles.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

It ran well at home, rolling even better than my kato superliners, but on a modular club layout, the flanges of the ESM wheels pick on the tiniest imperfections in the track and de-rail very easily. In places where the train had issues, other cars had no problems.

So I will Continue to experiment with the different ESM axle length, as well as with tangent and Intermountain wheels.

Please define "tiniest".

Because, honestly, most modular layouts I've been part of remind me of the old ND&W: https://interestingengineering.com/video/the-worst-railroad-track

[bbussey]

Exactly.  I haven't run equipment on modular layouts since I graduated from pizza cutters decades ago.  Only on permanent layouts and switching modules where the trackwork is stable.

[bigdawgks]

I've run trains with dozens of ESM wheel sets on some very large N-trak layouts that included some really horrendous gaps. I've never seen one of them derail in such circumstances. I think if you are experiencing frequent derailments the wheels are probably not the cause.