Key Imports C-9

[SP-Wolf]

I would like to offer up an alternative -- using a Lifelike tender. With its all wheel pick up. And access to it's interior for a decoder. (And or sound - if you are so inclined).



Thanks,
Wolf

[mmagliaro]

SP-Wolf, is that a Life-Like tender?  Or did you mean the Model Power one they made as a separate part (about 15 years ago!).   If it's Life-Like, what does it come from?

Yes, swapping out the tender should improve the pickup dramatically - better than it ever could be on the brass model because you will have all-wheel tender pickup.   But of course, you lose 1/2 of your "brass" locomotive model.

[peteski]

SP-Wolf, is that a Life-Like tender?  Or did you mean the Model Power one they made as a separate part (about 15 years ago!).   If it's Life-Like, what does it come from?

Model Power sold tenders as separate items? I didn't know that.  I thought only Bachmann did that for a while.

[ATSF_Ron]

Progress!  I buffed the tender bolsters, wheels, and contact points on the bottom of the tender.  I also found some 800 grit sandpaper and cleaned up both the tender mounting post and the U-shaped wire from the drawbar.  Better, but still not what this loco is capable of.  So I had a bright boy track cleaner sitting on the layout and placed it on top of the tender to experiment with extra weight.  Voila!  Like magic, it improved performance dramatically!  Next problem is can I access the tender inside?  I notice there are two teeny tiny phillips head screws next to the truck mounting screws.  However, the piece those screws go into looks as though it may be soldered to the tender bottom.  If that's the case and I remove those two tiny screws, I'm worried about loosening up any internal electrical connections and never being able to access them.  Anyone have experience getting into one of these tenders?  I believe the Oriental 2-8-0s are completely soldered with no access.  Hopefully these Key Imports tenders are different.

SP-Wolf, your models and layout are outstanding!  If I had those tenders I'd definitely consider that swap.  I even had 3 of them years ago but stupidly sold them when I decided not to convert my Bachmann 2-8-0s.  I feel like I'm getting close to where the running quality should be with this model.  If adding weight doesn't help or turns out not to be an option, then I think I may have to look at that darn screw/post/contact wire under the motor.  That'll be brutal to access.  For me anyway.

[ATSF_Ron]

Peteski, I forgot to reply to your suggestion.  I did try the alligator clip test on the motor and it's fine.  No binding in the drivers/rods either.  The durn electrical gremlins are a tough nut to crack!

[mmagliaro]

Model Power sold tenders as separate items? I didn't know that.  I thought only Bachmann did that for a while.

Yes, they sold their short Vanderbilt tender that they used to include with some of the 4-6-2's as a separate item.  They were not easy to find when they first came out, and then went from "not easy" to "impossible" to find.
So now I flip the question around... Life Like sold steam tenders?

[SP-Wolf]

SP-Wolf, is that a Life-Like tender?  Or did you mean the Model Power one they made as a separate part (about 15 years ago!).   If it's Life-Like, what does it come from?

Yes, swapping out the tender should improve the pickup dramatically - better than it ever could be on the brass model because you will have all-wheel tender pickup.   But of course, you lose 1/2 of your "brass" locomotive model.

Sorry Max and everyone,
It is in fact from Model Power. I am not 100% - I am fighting "The Virus". I would rather lose 1/2 of the brass model to gain far superior electrical qualities. The brass tenders are stored away. And would be very easy to restore the models to original - if need be. 

Best regards,
Wolf

[SP-Wolf]

Progress!  I buffed the tender bolsters, wheels, and contact points on the bottom of the tender.  I also found some 800 grit sandpaper and cleaned up both the tender mounting post and the U-shaped wire from the drawbar.  Better, but still not what this loco is capable of.  So I had a bright boy track cleaner sitting on the layout and placed it on top of the tender to experiment with extra weight.  Voila!  Like magic, it improved performance dramatically!  Next problem is can I access the tender inside?  I notice there are two teeny tiny phillips head screws next to the truck mounting screws.  However, the piece those screws go into looks as though it may be soldered to the tender bottom.  If that's the case and I remove those two tiny screws, I'm worried about loosening up any internal electrical connections and never being able to access them.  Anyone have experience getting into one of these tenders?  I believe the Oriental 2-8-0s are completely soldered with no access.  Hopefully these Key Imports tenders are different.

SP-Wolf, your models and layout are outstanding!  If I had those tenders I'd definitely consider that swap.  I even had 3 of them years ago but stupidly sold them when I decided not to convert my Bachmann 2-8-0s.  I feel like I'm getting close to where the running quality should be with this model.  If adding weight doesn't help or turns out not to be an option, then I think I may have to look at that darn screw/post/contact wire under the motor.  That'll be brutal to access.  For me anyway.

Thank you, very much. Great news that you are making progress to improving the electrical conductivity of your locomotive.

Best regards,
Wolf

[Mike Madonna]

Ron, with just 3 posts, your privileges on the forum are restricted.  You need 25 posts for full access.
See https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=43673.0

Sounds like your drawbar mount is similar to the one in this brass loco.

Peteski,

Can you "elaborate" on this DCC install (model, components, etc.)??
Thanks!

[ATSF_Ron]

Well crud!  I attempted to remove the piece at the bottom of the tender where the trucks mount.  This seems to be the only "easy" access to the tender for adding weight.  It was a no go.  That piece is solidly soldered to the bottom, even though there are two small phillips screws seemingly holding it on.  I took some tweezers and tried to pry it up after removing the screws.  There was ZERO movement, and I'm not screwing up a nice brass tender.  Another option I thought of is gluing on some thin sheet lead weight that I have in my supply box.  It would need to be a narrow strip (about 3 or 4 mm wide and 22-ish mm long) that would fit along the bottom of the tender between the trucks.  Mount with some super glue and add black paint and you wouldn't even see it.  I'll probably cut the strip and test it first before gluing on to an expensive brass model.

What do you think, guys?  Lead is a reasonably heavy material, but in this small of an amount?  I guess I'll find out!

On another note, I played around with the Pecos River 4-6-2 and noticed some quite visible sparking at the drawbar connection to the loco.  The tender connection bar is bent at a slight upward angle as it heads toward the tender.  I looked at a model currently for sale on eBay and that drawbar is a definite 90 degree angle.  I wonder if that 87 or so degree bend in mine is causing a short and the sparking, hence the jittery contact.  Thoughts on this one?  Oy vey, these electrical gremlins!!!

[mmagliaro]

A piece of lead that thin will not add enough weight to matter.  You describe a piece about 1/8" wide and 7/8" long.  It would have to be pretty thick to weigh enough, and then it would show. You can confirm this for yourself by just placing it on top of the tender and running it.  I bet it doesn't help.

You could take the trucks off and cut a slot down the belly with a Dremel, and then push a thick slug of lead up into the slot.  Don't let it fall inside the tender.  Just get it flush, with some epoxy on it so it will say put, and then paint over it.  Not glamorous, and goodbye to the "collectibility".  But that would get you some decent weight and shouldn't show if you file it and paint it black.

As for the drawbar post on the Pecos 4-6-2, that sounds like the drawbar spring wire is touching the frame intermittently (or the wire attached to the screw up inside is touching the frame is touching the frame.  That drawbar post and the drawbar, and the wire inside the cab from the drawbar up to the motor,  have to be completely insulated from the frame ).  I'd have to see a picture to be more useful on this one.

[ATSF_Ron]

Here's something from the WTF department.  I just completely reassembled the C-9.  No working headlight now but the running quality has improved to about 90% of what I'd expect.  Go figure.  I didn't mess with the tender weights yet either.  One other oddity I've noticed.  I'm following a C-10 on eBay right now.  The seller has numerous pics, including one of the bottom of the loco.  As far as I know, the C-9 and C-10 have the same mechanism as they were released at the same time.  His model has an extra screw just to the left of the tender drawbar connection on the loco.  It looks like it might connect to whatever contraption holds the motor to the chassis.  MY loco is missing this screw.  It's also a bit noisier than what I recall from my old C-9 years ago.  Could this missing screw be the source of the noise?  I noticed a lot of up and down movement from the motor while I was testing with the shell off.

At any rate, I'm leaving things alone for now, as I'm extremely happy with the improvements in running quality!  Thank you all for your insights and suggestions.  Now I'm going to go tinker some more with the Pecos River 4-6-2...

[ATSF_Ron]

Thank you, Max.  I'll post a pic once I get to 25 posts or if I can fix it.  I appreciate all of your help!

[peteski]

Peteski,

Can you "elaborate" on this DCC install (model, components, etc.)??
Thanks!

Sure Mike. See https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=36396.0
I can't believe it was over 7 years ago!

[mmagliaro]

Key mounts their motors on a torque arm (a very ingenious system).  It is a spring-loaded arm that allows the motor worm to engage its mating worm gear, but also allows some spring give in the mount of the motor.
That helps it engage the worm more smoothly and run quieter. 

Here's the motor mount on Key PRR H10.  Note the screw with the red arrow pointing to it.
This one is screwed in from the inside, but maybe yours comes up from the outside.
If that screw is missing, yes, the motor might move around and run noisier than normal and you need to replace it.