Holding Cars in a Siding on a Grade

[tehachapifan]

Yes, lots of great ideas! Thanks!

[bbussey]

I’m not trying to be a killjoy or wisea$$, but doesn’t it make more sense to have all sidings level with no grade?  Isn’t that prototypical?

[randgust]

You'd think so.   It is a standard on any new construction, but you'll find old sidings out there that are in service that violate every design rule known to man.  And it's a by-railroad standard, so if a shortline wants a customer bad enough, it's up to them what they will accept.   The big guys, NS, CSX, CN, etc. all have extensive siding design manuals that are online so you can see for yourself.  Yeah, 0% any place a car is parked, and derails protecting the connecting main.

The wildest siding I've ever seen in my life as an inspector was the big ConAgra (Chef Boy Ar Dee) plant in Milton, PA  (Ferry Rd.)  Look at it in Google Earth.  Two tracks, with four spots for covered hoppers, and tail tracks for loading boxcars.   What you can't see on Google Earth is that it drops off the main on about a 4% grade on those two sidings, they are STEEP all the way to the bottom, with inbound loaded hoppers parked on that 4% grade.   And at the bottom is the brick plant wall    If you ever loose control of those cars, they're going into the building, bumper or no bumper.   
I suspect that those tracks go all the way back to the Reading, maybe, or some predecessor road, but the new service area is by a shortline, it's a big  customer, they wanted them, so buckle up buttercup on the handbrakes, chocks, etc.   I have to think the crews pucker every time they deliver a 286 car of grain there.


That's not the only one I've ever seen, just the worst.

[mark.hinds]

I’m not trying to be a killjoy or wisea$$, but doesn’t it make more sense to have all sidings level with no grade?  Isn’t that prototypical?

I was thinking the same thing.  Unfortunately some of us have compromised on the level siding thing, in the interest of getting more into our available space.  In my case, in order to keep my third and final scene from being too high off the floor, I plan to model it on a 2% grade, whereas in the real world this location (Caliente CA) isn't .  My alternative is to add another loop the the helix to gain 2", but then as I said the scene is too high.  Maybe the OP had a similar dilemma...

[brokemoto]

You'd think so.   It is a standard on any new construction, but you'll find old sidings out there that are in service that violate every design rule known to man.  And it's a by-railroad standard, so if a shortline wants a customer bad enough, it's up to them what they will accept.   The big guys,

My sidings where there are slopes mostly fit this.  I have two "main lines", where the prototypes run,  (actually "safety valve" secondaries") where the sidings are all level.  On the short line, a business that has several tracks and the junction, there are sloped sidings.

At the three way junction, it is the freight house.  The freight house usually has only one LCL boxcar parked there for any length of time.  Other times, cars to be picked up by freight trains that pass through the junction are parked there temporarily, but that is only for a "few hours".  Often, the junction switcher sits on that siding with the cars, so it will hold them in place.  That siding is far longer than necessary for the freight house thus it is a good place to store cars that are waiting for a train to fetch them.  At a junction, you have to put trackage where you have the real estate.

The short line also must put trackage where the real estate is available and must accommodate its customers more than the customer must accommodate it.

While you always strive for level, you can not always get it.

A four per-cent grade?  YIPE!  I would guess that if the railroad were going to use yard goats to service that plant, you would need at least three, if they were  the older, seven-fifty to nine hundred horses just to keep the whole business from running away when you pushed two loaded cars down that siding.  If you are using B-B fifteen hundred horse road switchers, you would need at least two.  You would need this for safety's sake even if you are sending in only two loaded cars at a time.  One nine hundred horses yard goat likely would be enough to get two empties at a time out of that siding.

[Maletrain]

In a perfect world, prototype and models would be level everywhere a car is spotted or cars are left on the main during switching moves.  But, a lot of model railroads aren't so perfect.

For the owners of the imperfect layouts, things like installed rods that can be raised out of the roadbed at fixed points might be the best solutions for a few problem areas.  Or, maybe just holes drilled in ties and pins with blue flags made available in the local card file boxes would serve well enough and be readily useable by visiting operators.

But, if you visit layouts you are not familiar with, I like the idea of having a couple of those red modified clothespins in my pocket.  They are easy to carry, easy to use quickly, cause no damage, and hard to leave behind.

My own layout - I intend to keep it level wherever cars will be left unattached to a loco, but at least one of my drill tracks will need to have a bit of a grade (or end up in a trench).

[Cajonpassfan]

I don't see a sidings or spurs on grade as a "compromise", on the contrary, flattening it would be when modeling a prototype that was on a grade. On mountainous railroads, such conditions were common, sometimes to the extreme, see pic. On my layout, I have a continuous grade with sidings and spurs per prototype and use the blue pin trick for now in a few places for now (and possibly ever).

Another option I've seen is a soft bristle from an old toothbrush embedded in the tie, soft enough to pull cars through but stiff enough to hold a few spotted cars. That was on an HO layout, not sure how it would work in N but it maybe worth experimenting with.
Otto K.

[tehachapifan]

I’m not trying to be a killjoy or wisea$$, but doesn’t it make more sense to have all sidings level with no grade?  Isn’t that prototypical?

It's your wheels, Bryan! I have areas that I thought were flat where cars will now start to roll away because your wheels roll so damn smooth and true!

Actually, while there is a lot of truth to my above statement, my bowl-of-spaghetti-style layout has a slow climb up an approx 2% grade to the top where a helix brings it back down to the bottom again. I haven't disrupted this climb where there are sidings and I would guess that the proto railroads don't either in many areas as has been mentioned. Isn't that what handbrakes on cars are for?

[mandealco]

My prototype railroad, the Morristown & Erie, has a 4% grade on its original interchange tracks.  Though it's not built yet, I will likely use the spring wire with blue flag method.  The 4% grade is the result of the DL&W raising its mainline to eliminate grade crossings many years ago. 
Cheers
Steve

[ednadolski]

I would think a magnet strong enough to hold a string of cars, could play hell with magnetic coupling/uncoupling.  Experiments are called for.

I don't use magnetic couplers myself, but perhaps magnets at designated spotting locations could be raised/lowered from underneath, as a part of apply/release the brakes.....?

Ed

[peteski]

I don't use magnetic couplers myself, but perhaps magnets at designated spotting locations could be raised/lowered from underneath, as a part of apply/release the brakes.....?

Ed

Unless the train you try to stop is a fixed consist (like a string of coal hoppers), you would have to add some magnetic item to each car, no?

[Spades]

The covered hoppers visible from Cameron Avenue street view show the 4% grade.

The wildest siding I've ever seen in my life as an inspector was the big ConAgra (Chef Boy Ar Dee) plant in Milton, PA  (Ferry Rd.)  Look at it in Google Earth.  Two tracks, with four spots for covered hoppers, and tail tracks for loading boxcars.   What you can't see on Google Earth is that it drops off the main on about a 4% grade on those two sidings, they are STEEP all the way to the bottom, with inbound loaded hoppers parked on that 4% grade.   And at the bottom is the brick plant wall    If you ever loose control of those cars, they're going into the building, bumper or no bumper.   
I suspect that those tracks go all the way back to the Reading, maybe, or some predecessor road, but the new service area is by a shortline, it's a big  customer, they wanted them, so buckle up buttercup on the handbrakes, chocks, etc.   I have to think the crews pucker every time they deliver a 286 car of grain there.

[ednadolski]

you would have to add some magnetic item to each car, no?

My thought was perhaps a small ND magnet (or two) epoxied the underside of each car, then underneath the track at each car spot have a larger ND magnet, with the (magnetic ) poles all oriented to attract the car-mounted magnets.  I suppose a stationary electromagnet could work too.  The idea being that dual magnets would be stronger than just one magnet trying to attract say a piece of steel underneath each car.

(Gluing a magnet or two underneath each car ought to be easier than say installing a resistor wheelset.)


Ed

[peteski]

My thought was perhaps a small ND magnet (or two) epoxied the underside of each car, then underneath the track at each car spot have a larger ND magnet, with the (magnetic ) poles all oriented to attract the car-mounted magnets.  I suppose a stationary electromagnet could work too.  The idea being that dual magnets would be stronger than just one magnet trying to attract say a piece of steel underneath each car.

Ed

Some layouts have hundreds of cars.  Adding a magnet to each car seems like a lot of work when a simpler solution coupe be used.  But that's just me. And if you use magnetic uncoupling those magnets could interfere with uncoupling magnets.

But if you have small switching network with a dozen cars and no magnetic uncoupling, then your solution is perfectly viable.

[ednadolski]

Some layouts have hundreds of cars.  Adding a magnet to each car seems like a lot of work when a simpler solution coupe be used.  But that's just me. And if you use magnetic uncoupling those magnets could interfere with uncoupling magnets.

But if you have small switching network with a dozen cars and no magnetic uncoupling, then your solution is perfectly viable.

Certainly.... like so many other things (couplers, DCC, etc...) there are no universal solutions.

Ed