Atlas SD45's

[peteski]

Yes Pete, they DO.



(Have we not discussed this before?)

We sure had, many times, with no winners.  You like chocolate, I like vanilla.

[ednadolski]

Ed, as you likely are well aware of, the example I posted is the 'Rivet Counter" grade model from "Scale Trains".  Isnt' that one of the top manufacturer of N scale models (who make such highly-detailed models)?  Instead of counting rivets, I did some "separately-applied detail parts analysys".  This problem with added-on detail parts that Mark eloqently described is prsent on all recent models from all manufacturers who chose to have those detail parts applied at the factory (at ptoduction pace and quantity).  No factroy worker I can think of will be able to produce close-to-perfect models on an assembly, so all such models will suffer from what we are describing.

I have nothing against improvements in N scale models, but some "improvements" to some of us aren't really improvements.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's really your intent to rationalize or justify low expectations or quality, just because we're talking about N scale.  These mfrs have been doing a pretty decent job in recent years with HO scale, and they are continuing to improve (check out STRC or ATHGEN if you don't believe me), so I think in due time that will trickle down and translate to N.  My hope is that they are hearing a message of "you can do better" rather than "don't bother, no one cares".

So rather than dwell on previous disappointments, I'm making a Mr. Wallet Vote^(TM) for one of the new ST Rivet-counter SD40-2s that are due out next year.  That should give a first-hand indication of where the current SOTA is at, vis-a-vis detailing levels.   We shall see.

(FWIW I wasn't disappointed with ST's C44-9Ws, and I would buy them over Kato any day.  Maybe I just don't buy enough lately to know, but Kato is the one that seems to be standing still, at least to me.)

Ed

(EDIT:  if you have any models that you can't stand any more because of the poor detailing, you can always feel free to ship them to me.  Return shipment not guaranteed, of course** )

(** Zrobię dla ciebie wyjątek. Polacy muszą pozostać zjednoczeni.) 

[tehachapifan]

I still think putting (tiny) drill dimples on the shell with grabs in a baggie is the best solution to all this. Much like FVM did with at least the N scale ES44's and GP60's (although without the odd skew to the end grabs...not sure why they did that). I think a lot of people that want separately applied grabs would want them applied straight and even (like I would). If they don't care in the least if they're straight and even, they probably wouldn't care if they are missing entirely represented by drill dimples. I also believe that I would always be able to install grab irons way better than a factory worker. This is not a dig on the factory worker as I will spend a couple hours applying grabs as perfectly as I can on a single loco. I'm guessing that in the factory, they try to get them installed (by hand) in a minute or two (maybe less?). Also, to me, nothing looks less convincing than molded on grab irons.

[lock4244]

I still think putting (tiny) drill dimples on the shell with grabs in a baggie is the best solution to all this. Much like FVM did with at least the N scale ES44's and GP60's (although without the odd skew to the end grabs...not sure why they did that). I think a lot of people that want separately applied grabs would want them applied straight and even (like I would). If they don't care in the least if they're straight and even, they probably wouldn't care if they are missing entirely. I also believe that I would always be able to install grab irons way better than a factory worker. This is not a dig on the factory worker as I will spend a couple hours applying grabs as perfectly as I can on a single loco. I'm guessing that in the factory, they try to get them installed (by hand) in a minute or two (maybe less?). Also, to me, nothing looks less convincing than molded on grab irons.

Perhaps the ultimate test of Ed's Law... find a prototype with molded on grab irons 

[lock4244]

I still think putting (tiny) drill dimples on the shell with grabs in a baggie is the best solution to all this. Much like FVM did with at least the N scale ES44's and GP60's (although without the odd skew to the end grabs...not sure why they did that). I think a lot of people that want separately applied grabs would want them applied straight and even (like I would). If they don't care in the least if they're straight and even, they probably wouldn't care if they are missing entirely. I also believe that I would always be able to install grab irons way better than a factory worker. This is not a dig on the factory worker as I will spend a couple hours applying grabs as perfectly as I can on a single loco. I'm guessing that in the factory, they try to get them installed (by hand) in a minute or two (maybe less?). Also, to me, nothing looks less convincing than molded on grab irons.

I think the dimples would satisfy most people here. If you care that much about separately applied grabs you can do it yourself without having to shave the molded ones off and touching up. If you don't care then likely the presence of dimples instead of molded on grabs probably wouldn't keep you up at night. If the dimples do bother some folks it'll keep the internet forums in business lol.

[tehachapifan]

Perhaps the ultimate test of Ed's Law... find a prototype with molded on grab irons 

Ha, good point! Although I bet there was/is something out there somewhere that has something similar looking to a molded-on grab. Ed's Law is pretty powerful!

[peteski]

Ed,
I was aware what I was getting into when buying those Rivet Counter Scale Trains Gas turbine models (I have both versions).  But since that was the only proverbial game in town, and I wanted to own those models, I went with them.  That doesn't mean I have to gush over them when I feel they have shortcomings.

This brings up another point: Mr. Wallet Vote ^[TM].  Sure, we can do that, but the reality is if enough people do that, the sales will be poor and the model producer will assume there is no market for N scale and will not produce more N scale models.  Yes, that is a bit overstated, but you catch my drift?

As for Kato "standing still" - really?!  The seem to be steadily producing  N scale models, much more so than let's say Scale Trains.  You can't just fixate on narrow-hood diesels.  Just go to Kato website and see what's new.  The last few I bought (or will buy) are the Big Boy, 20th Century Limited ,and a complete ICE4 train (Kato, sold under Lemke name).  But there were many more releases, both new models and re-releases.

Or if by "standing" still, you mean "not producing models to your liking with free-standing glued-on details", then I believe you are correct. I doubt Kato will ever produce that that type of a model. Too labor intensive and too difficult to control the quality. Kato locos are still assembled in Japan (yes, some other Kato non-rail-based models are made in China and the difference in quality is to me clear).

Like I said, you and me have different criteria of what we desire in factory-made models.  I think I better stop replying here since I started getting negative votes for stating facts (not even derogatory, controversial  or snippy comments).  This discussion is not going to accomplish anything.

[tehachapifan]

I think the dimples would satisfy most people here. If you care that much about separately applied grabs you can do it yourself without having to shave the molded ones off and touching up. If you don't care then likely the presence of dimples instead of molded on grabs probably wouldn't keep you up at night. If the dimples do bother some folks it'll keep the internet forums in business lol.

Agreed!

However, it's clear someone does not agree with a series of down votes. Wish they would share their thoughts rather than going the "disrespect" route.

[wes_sutton]

Perhaps the ultimate test of Ed's Law... find a prototype with molded on grab irons 

Will these be fitted with accurate 20-645E3s?

Inquiring minds need to know

[lock4244]

Will these be fitted with accurate 20-645E3s?

Inquiring minds need to know

The rabbit hole has no real bottom.

[jagged ben]

We sure had, many times, with no winners.  You like chocolate, I like vanilla.

No I mean the dimensions that grabs stand off the body on prototypes.  Which is not a matter of your and my preferences.

[ednadolski]

This brings up another point: Mr. Wallet Vote ^[TM].  Sure, we can do that, but the reality is if enough people do that, the sales will be poor and the model producer will assume there is no market for N scale and will not produce more N scale models.  Yes, that is a bit overstated, but you catch my drift?

That would seem like a pretty mistaken thing to conclude.  OTOH they really can't figure out for themselves what their N scale customers want to buy, then I guess they could always look and see what kinds of N scale models are selling well for their competitors.

I think the dimples would satisfy most people here. If you care that much about separately applied grabs you can do it yourself without having to shave the molded ones off and touching up. If you don't care then likely the presence of dimples instead of molded on grabs probably wouldn't keep you up at night. If the dimples do bother some folks it'll keep the internet forums in business lol.

Molded-on parts are all but impossible to shave off and then touch up in a way that isn't worse than the original part.  Usually the whole model has to be stripped and re-painted.

With things like the three-foot-rule, typical train-show lighting, etc. it sometimes can be hard to tell whether an N-scale model has molded-on grabs, or separate ones, or even none at all.

Ed

[lock4244]

Molded-on parts are all but impossible to shave off and then touch up in a way that isn't worse than the original part.  Usually the whole model has to be stripped and re-painted.

With things like the three-foot-rule, typical train-show lighting, etc. it sometimes can be hard to tell whether an N-scale model has molded-on grabs, or separate ones, or even none at all.

Ed

I've only ever shaved them off undec so no actual experience with an painted model. Probably because I don't want to ruin the model, lol. As the price of ever more detailed models continually creeps up, one wonders how much longer we'll be willing to pay for all these added detail parts, let alone road specific models? At some point we'll hit a wall and Trainman will become just fine.

Not that I don't appreciate all the little details and road specific models, but there's a limit, and we all need food and shelter.

[GonzoCRFan]

I got a crazy idea...maybe, for once, we don't ***** all over a model that doesn't even exist yet? There are Veronica Moser videos that are cleaner than this discussion thread...

[MK]

I got a crazy idea...maybe, for once, we don't ***** all over a model that doesn't even exist yet? There are Veronica Moser videos that are cleaner than this discussion thread...

It would be boring TRW then.