You think I'd know better - Trix 2-10-0 rebuild

[wm3798]

You mentioned that it runs flawlessly in reverse.  If I recall correctly, that was a standard feature of most steam drives of that vintage

I'll have to put mine on the track and see how it does.  I was having similar problems under load.  My original drive, unaltered 2-10-0 ran like a Swiss watch.  Once you start moving things around, though...

Lee

[bbunge]

...
  But finger testing each wheel under load again I can feel a 'click' one per revolution, and that leads to a rythmic sound only under full load, just sound, not hesitation.   
...

Amazing work!

Tongue in check, sounds pretty prototypical to me for a Hippo.  I've heard a few recordings of I1s and they all have a pretty loud rod clank, which I always attributed to over use and "wartime" PRR maintenance. 

But I'm currently reading "Set up and running" by John W Orr about his father Oscar "OP" Orr who was an engineman on the PRR from 1910 forward.  OP became known for his ability to get the most out of the engines and was regularly tasked by the engineers in Altoona to test various locomotives under operational conditions.  OP makes his thoughts and feelings about the I1 very clear.  They didn't steam well, they were impossible to fire by hand (the I1 didn't have a stoker), they couldn't make road speed, they rode very rough and he complained about the amount of rod clank and outright rejected the locomotive over the L1 which he liked much better.  He could not understand why the PRR was investing heavily in such a poor performing locomotive.

Later, he was asked to test and report data on the I1sa (superheated and with other enhancements), reporting the stoker made the fireman's job workable, it steamed better, ran faster, pulled better than the L1, but he still complained about the rod clank and the rough ride.  I suspect the clank interfered with his ability to "seat of the pants" hear other noises that allowed him to tweak the throttle and reverser to hook up the locomotive just so.

If you are into understanding the men who made the steam era work, this book is highly recommended.

Bob
 

[randgust]

I just ordered that book, thanks!

I got to qualify as a student fireman on PM 1225 when they allowed that, also have run steam, so yeah, I'm into it.  And the family legacy of my uncle with a 'one day job' as a student fireman on PRR is the stuff of legend, he can be quoted as saying 'I never worked that hard before in my life and I'm never working that hard again!!!!'   That actually got verified decades later by his instructor, who remembered my uncle throwing the coal scoop at him at the end of the day.  I got to meet him before he retired off Conrail.

Given the year, and the territory that I've figured out, I'm still guessing on the facts, but as it was still very much I-1 territory (one on the front, two on the rear, Oil City-Olean-Buffalo with coal destined for Lackawanna Bethlehem steel), I sincerely 'think' he got stuck on an I-1 his only day on the job.   And I know, from my own experience, that if you're a student fireman, even with a stoker, it can't hit the front corners.   And also, if you are a fireman, you're expected to know how to fire WITHOUT THE STOKER WORKING so it may even be that it was deliberately shut off by his instructor.   I was trained that way, didn't forget it either.   So the personal stories of these employees are worth a lot, thanks.

My first cabride was on Arcade & Attica 4-6-0 14 at about age 17, and even on that little gal, the fireman never sat down once.  Steady shoveling going upgrade.  So I can only imagine an I-1 on pusher, with or without an operable stoker, for a good 75 mile run uphill with loads.

I've helped run and fire a 2-8-2 oil burner under heavy load, that was a comparative piece of cake except for the rather violent lateral 'kicks' to the cab at full cutoff and about 30mph.  Either stand on the cab floor and hang on, or stand on the tender deckplate, but don't straddle!!!

[randgust]

OK, just to PROVE how focused I am on performance, I decided to tear into the drive train all over again mostly due to gear noise under full load.
Running the locomotive upside down in the cradle and manipulating and feeling things with tweezers made a couple discoveries.
First, the 'hitch' going through a curve or under load was coming from the #2 driver binding very slightly in the rods.   As an expiriment I pulled the drive pins as it's all spur gear drive anyway, and yup, that got rid of that problem.   Still very noisy, and I also noticed that there was more 'slop' in the #2 and #3 drivers on this chassis than on the other two.  Checking with tweezers confirmed this.
The plastic gear box cover is an interesting design.  There are two sets of lugs in the center with 'hooks' that engage the metal frame.  It doesn't snap, it has to be slid in.  And removing it and studying it found that the 'clips' were broken off on two of the four.  So I swapped that plastic cover out with the other chassis.   That made a big difference in the noise, confirmed that the sloppy fit in the axles (vertical play) was part of the problem.  That's an easy problem to develop if you're working with that gear cover at all.
The #2 driver was still somewhat sloppy, not cocentric.   So again, as an expiriment, I swapped the #2 driver with one of the other #2 drivers that seemed to be better. 
OMG, that did it.   Between the pins, the rod clearance, the gear box cover and the #2 driver, that pretty much eliminated all the racket.  Satisfied, I pulled it one more time, turned down the flanges, painted the driver, reassembled.   Test runs still have a tiny bit of buzz at high speed, but at the speed this SHOULD be operated, it's quiet, smooth, doesn't bind.
I do wish I'd done all this before I painted it, oh well, touchup to do.   But I think I've got it.   Worthy of sound now.

[dem34]

I just ordered that book, thanks!

I got to qualify as a student fireman on PM 1225 when they allowed that, also have run steam, so yeah, I'm into it.  And the family legacy of my uncle with a 'one day job' as a student fireman on PRR is the stuff of legend, he can be quoted as saying 'I never worked that hard before in my life and I'm never working that hard again!!!!'   That actually got verified decades later by his instructor, who remembered my uncle throwing the coal scoop at him at the end of the day.  I got to meet him before he retired off Conrail.

Given the year, and the territory that I've figured out, I'm still guessing on the facts, but as it was still very much I-1 territory (one on the front, two on the rear, Oil City-Olean-Buffalo with coal destined for Lackawanna Bethlehem steel), I sincerely 'think' he got stuck on an I-1 his only day on the job.   And I know, from my own experience, that if you're a student fireman, even with a stoker, it can't hit the front corners.   And also, if you are a fireman, you're expected to know how to fire WITHOUT THE STOKER WORKING so it may even be that it was deliberately shut off by his instructor.   I was trained that way, didn't forget it either.   So the personal stories of these employees are worth a lot, thanks.

My first cabride was on Arcade & Attica 4-6-0 14 at about age 17, and even on that little gal, the fireman never sat down once.  Steady shoveling going upgrade.  So I can only imagine an I-1 on pusher, with or without an operable stoker, for a good 75 mile run uphill with loads.

I've helped run and fire a 2-8-2 oil burner under heavy load, that was a comparative piece of cake except for the rather violent lateral 'kicks' to the cab at full cutoff and about 30mph.  Either stand on the cab floor and hang on, or stand on the tender deckplate, but don't straddle!!!

Reminds me of the destruction of the romanticism that happened to a friend of mine back when there was a Train Store around the corner from my house. I was wrapping up my purchases, we were having a quick talk. Old man in his 90s walks in, wants some Bachmann track to run his trains around the Christmas tree. Grumpy old dude after getting his track mentions offhandedly that he Worked for the Penssy back in the day with his training being done on H9s and K4s along the NY&LB and retiring with Conrail in the 80s.  Friend of course gushed about how amazing it must have been to start work on such beautiful locomotives. A twitch in the man's eye was followed by an expletive laced rant on how back breaking and painful it was to fire a Pacific that was trying desperately for hours on end to maintain a strict commuter schedule. But he loved his job after being assigned to an E7.

[badlandnp]

Interesting thoughts about steam. I have had customers that either began their careers on steam, or whose husbands did. To a person, they were all happy to see steam go away. Dirty and hot and back breaking labor. There was also a bit of nostalgia because steam locomotives are beautiful and the so obvious and deeply felt power was so raw and in your face, they were unforgettable. Yet these people that worked steam were glad for the diesel to make their job easier and cleaner and a bit safer.

The biggest complaint was the loss of jobs due to the efficiencies of the diesel. And some, the less hard-bitten and cranky, would wax a little romantic at the memories. Until reminded of the laborious and filthy work involved.

That being said, the I1 you have made is beautiful. And the troubleshooting of the noisy running gear worked out well. Can't wait to see it rolling along at speed with a long drag.

[bbunge]

Randgust,

Found this soundprint of two I1's starting a coal drag.  I'm a fan of n-scale sound (and smoke), but I haven't heard scale sound that can match the power here:

http://www.columbusrailroads.com/new/audio/I1sa_2_frt_in-out-chuff_Shamokin_1957.mp3

This is from the sounds of the PRR on the Columbus (Ohio) railroads website:

http://www.columbusrailroads.com/new/?menu=05Steam_Railroads&submenu=15Pennsylvania_Railroad&submenu4=55Sights_%26_Sounds

So now you need to build a 2nd one 

Bob

[randgust]

OK, final painting and weathering, everything done but the coal pile (and I won't do that until I mess with the speaker in the tender)



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1025.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1028.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1023.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1026.JPG

Salute to Max, I didn't have a GHQ boiler and a Kato mike and parts, but I copied his methods.

[mike_lawyer]

Looks great all weathered and grimy.  Once I get my layout up and running I want to try and build an I1 using a Kato Mikado like Max did in his articles.  I built one years ago and want to build another.

[wm3798]

Looks really sharp, Randy.
Lee

[Simon D.]

This is really good.  Would you be able to point me to your method of turning down oversized wheel flanges please?  It makes such a difference to the look of the model.

[Lemosteam]

OK, final painting and weathering, everything done but the coal pile (and I won't do that until I mess with the speaker in the tender)



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1025.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1028.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1023.JPG



link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1026.JPG

Salute to Max, I didn't have a GHQ boiler and a Kato mike and parts, but I copied his methods.

@randgust , turned out great!

Mind if I use your photos on my homepage, or woud you like to send a different one with layout background?

[randgust]

This is really good.  Would you be able to point me to your method of turning down oversized wheel flanges please?  It makes such a difference to the look of the model.

I knew I was changing motors, so while the old motor was still on, I just ran it fast and used a diamond file on the flanges, checking frequently with a micrometer.   Touched it up with 600 grit.

I'd never recommend that on any steamer that was rod-drive only, too much of a beating on rods and crankpins.  But with a spur-gear drive, it's no worse than run-in.

When I swapped out the 2nd driver, I pulled the opposite driver off the axle and chucked it in the dremel, but I only did it that way because I didn't want to beat the new motor and I also had 'unpinned' it so that if I messed up the quartering (which I did) it didn't matter and you couldn't see it either!

[mmagliaro]

It looks really good, Randy.  Congratulations on a long and hard-fought project!  The finish is good - grimy and dirty, but not so overdone that it's all just "dirt", and it makes the details like the rivets and piping brackets pop.
And you can stop thanking me now!  LOL!  (But thank you).

[Simon D.]

Much appreciated Randy