Opinion: walk-around throttles with/without "memory"

[mmagliaro]

So in the process of tinkering around with a DC throttle of mine, and the idea of adding walk-around capability to it, I
was curious about peoples' preferences for "memory".

"Memory" means you unplug to move to a new spot on the layout, and the train keeps moving however it was moving.
"No Memory" means you have to stop your train before you unplug and move.

At first blush, memory seems like the obvious preferable way for it to work, since you don't have to stop the train.  But I can tell you that more than once I've operated on a layout where somebody unplugged and started walking, and something happened while they were unplugged (a derailment, a crash, etc) and they were powerless to do anything about it until they could scramble to a jack to plug in.

So now I'm curious about how people see this.  Personally, I never found it a big deal to just stop the train, and I liked the added security of knowing it wasn't going anywhere until I could control it again.

[Sokramiketes]

Personal preference is that the train keeps moving.  But I'm not against the speed bleeding off until plugged in again.  That way if something happens to the operator, the train does stop. 

[Nato]

           As a long time DCC user on the Wasatch N Scale  http:www.wasatchnscale.org using a wireless Walk Around Throttle , I find it a bit hard to imagine DC throttles although my old (last layout) was DC and used wireless walk around throttles from CVP. Unplugging your DC throttle and plugging it in at another location while the train runs seems OK to me. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[C855B]

I would want memory with trackside panic buttons.

I am seriously considering hardwired panic buttons on my own layout, even though it's DCC/WiFi. I've been in large layout operating settings where you are immediately aware of an unfolding disaster but you're not the one with the throttle in-hand. By the time you shout "Hey, Steve!" it's usually too late.

[Cajonpassfan]

I guess that would depend on the layout, its size, style and operation. I can't imagine having to stop trains on the Hill on my Cajon Pass layout every time there's a need to go plug in ahead. (Of course, I can't imagine running mainline trains with tethered throttles, either.. But I do love the orange "Emergency Stop" button on the NCE throttles; one push stops the train, three from any throttle shuts down the railroad, much to the offending party's embarrassment )
But to the original question, how about memory capable if desired, but having a RULE requiring operator(s) to stop before unplugging? Or is that too much to ask people?
Otto

[robert3985]

Y'know, I've never experienced walk-around throttles with memory. 

While in Ntrak, our DC throttles had a loooooong phone cord between the hand-held portion and main power portion, so there was never a need to "unplug".  I used my old Ntrak corded throttles for years on my home layout and never felt a need to have to unplug and replug.

And, just because all the operators were plugged in all the time, didn't prevent accidents from happening due to inattention, especially after we ditched Ntrak and went with our own layout standards, operating from the front of the layout instead of from behind the skyboard.  Although it's great to have more interaction between spectators and the crew, it became pretty obvious that things were happening on the layout while operators were running trains, but becoming distracted while talking with spectators.

If I remember correctly, the solution was to have a "crew" operating a train...an operator to run the train, and a conductor to talk to the spectators.  This worked well for a club with lots of members.

After the club disbanded, it was reincarnated by the Wasatch N Scale group, and one of the first things they did was to ditch the corded throttles and go with a wireless DC system by CVP, which Nate has mentioned previously...completely skipping the plug-in/plug-out walk around throttles with memory. Now, they've ditched DC and gone with an NCE DCC Radio System.

Me, on the other hand, organized a little group with a friend of mine, Gregg Cudworth, to put our previous club modules together with adapter sections forming a little "club" consisting of each one of us, our sons and a couple of regular guests to run at shows under the name "Bob & Gregg's Insane Adventure"...with the layout using my Digitrax Radio DCC as its operating system, with Gregg running infra-red controlled Rail Lynx in his engines.

So, my advice is to skip the whole plug-in/plug-out DC throttle protocol, find a DC wireless throttle system (I know one that might be for sale and so does Nate) so that no operator on your layout is ever unplugged and trains are always immediately available.

Since I am not interested at all in DC for running trains, there might be some type of system out there nowadays that uses wifi and smartphones to control a DC system.  Worth doing a Google search maybe, and might be quite affordable.

But, if you are set on adding plug-in/plug-out walkaround DC throttles to your layout, I would go with the memory option because the problem isn't with the memory, it's with operator distraction and inattention.  I am going to guess that in your experience of plug-in/plug-out DC throttles, that if you think about it, there were more incidents happening when the throttles were plugged in than when unplugged due to operator distraction. 

Basically, the only difference between incidents happening while unplugged, or accidents happening while plugged, is the response time.  On a DC powered layout, will the accidents be worse because of a longer response time?? I guess it depends on what kind of accident happens.

I think that having memory so your trains don't have to stop is a big convenience, and that the fear of operator inattention, and simultaneous train incidents happening, and being unplugged...all at the same time...isn't worth foregoing the memory feature, since all of the unplugged incidents happening simultaneously is going to be a relatively rare occurrence.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

 

[Chris333]

I have a MRC control master 20 that uses phone jacks and has memory. You can walk around and plug into the next jack without stopping the train.

I would want memory more than not have it. I mean I can always stop the train before I move if I want.

[MK]

...the problem isn't with the memory, it's with operator distraction and inattention.

This!

I've run at many large combined layouts at train shows the biggest being a combined N-Trak 60' x 40' with 10 active trains or so.  Whether the throttle has memory or not is irrelevant to accidents happening or not happening.

Throttle without memory
Operator stops train and unplugs throttle to move to next connection.  He runs across an old friend, "Hey Bob, long time no see, how's it going?"  Now you have a stopped train on the layout.  That's like stopping your car on a highway and the guy behind runs into you because he too is not paying attention or distracted.  The stopped trains becomes a hazard.

Throttle with memory
Operator unplugs throttle to move to next connection.  His train continues to run.  He runs across an old friend, "Hey Bob, long time no see, how's it going?"  His trains runs into the one in front of his be he's distracted by his friend Bob and not paying attention.

To Chriss333's comment about seeing an impending collision and no way to stop the offending train.  We usually just put a hand in front and let the wheels slip and scream the operator's name for total public embarrassment. Of course this only works if you are nearby the "run away" train.

[JMaurer1]

No contest: Memory.

[mmagliaro]

I really appreciate the insight and real-world operating experiences you all poured into this.
To fully clarify, I do not have a large home layout and the home-brewed scheme I used of having small control "pods" placed at 2-3 places around the layout fascia is more convenient for me than any tethered, untethered, or wireless scheme.
But since I had cleaned up and improved the old DC throttle circuit I build ages ago, I figured, what the heck, add a few more components and let it have some plug-in walk-around capability while I'm at it.  I also have a wireless scheme for it as well, because ready-made general-purpose rf transmit/receive modules are so darn cheap nowadays that it would be easy to add.
--
I tend to agree that if anybody else ever used this, they would most likely prefer that it have memory.
The best thing I gleaned from all your responses is the concept of an "emergency" or "big red button".  That is a great idea.
--
(oh, and the "home-brewed" scheme I mentioned means little "pods" in the fascia that just have speed and direction on them, and a button you push to take control from that pod.  All it does is switch some relays to transfer the throttle control to that pod.  But it means you don't have to carry anything in your hands, there is no big "control panel" anywhere, there is no wired or wireless anything, no phone, no software, no batteries.  You just move around the room and run the trains from wherever you happen to be near a pod.  It would never work for a larger multi-operator, multi-throttle layout.  But for single-operator home-use, I wouldn't trade it for anything.)

[Cajonpassfan]

Max, there's a lot to be said about the freedom of handsfree operation. I can see that for a layout like yours it makes a lot of sense. While my layout is walk around wireless, there are three "fixed" local operator positions at the yards where wired cabs are semi-permanently attached to the layout with Velcro. I enjoy the ability to have both hands free for switching, uncoupling, paperwork, scratching my head, etc. So that's my version of a "pod"...see below.
Otto

[Ed Kapuscinski]

There is something to be said for "fixed" throttle placement.

I feel like it subtly increases immersion.

"The brakeman does this, then the engineer does that".

[mmagliaro]

When you think about it, there are really only so many places around a layout where you would need or want to stand to operate.   When a layout gets large, then it could be unwieldy.  Near a large yard, you might have 4 operators who happen to converge there all at once.  Unless you want to set up 4 fixed throttles in that location to accommodate once-in-a-while traffic-fests, it makes more sense to go with mobile walk-arounds.
--
I embarked on this project to modernize my old DC transistor throttle circuit which I built when I was 17 and has served me well all these years.  But there were definitely things that could be made better about the pulse, momentum, the "curve" behavior of the speed control, overload detection, and so on. So I made a bunch of circuit mods, had nice boards made, and there ya go, Bob's yer uncle.
That's when I thought, hmmm. what the heck.  How hard would it be to add walk-around capability, and even some RF-based wireless?  This is 2022, not 1975.  It's a lot easier now.  So just for the fun of electronics, I'm doing it.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

So Max, here's a crazy idea.

Why reinvent the wheel?

Why not just get a simple wireless DCC system and then...

Put a couple decoders inline with the layout.

Want to control the main? Select address 1. The yard? Oh, that's address 2.

If you want to splurge, get a sound decoder and wire it up to some speakers.

Want different speed curves for the yard and the main? Easy peasy. Just program the decoder for that zone accordingly.

[peteski]

So Max, here's a crazy idea.

Why reinvent the wheel?

Why not just get a simple wireless DCC system and then...

Put a couple decoders inline with the layout.

Want to control the main? Select address 1. The yard? Oh, that's address 2.

Mark Gurries had a very good explanation as to why this is a bad idea, but he is currently rewriting his webpage and the old info is not there.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/dcc-welcome-page/dcc-bad-ideas/decoder-replacing-a-dc-throtttle
Some day the above link will have the complete info.

Basically the main reason is that the H-Bridge motor driver of a decoder is not designed to withstand the voltage spikes induced by poor wheel connectivity with the track, and it might also not handle shorts well.  Yes, most decoders tout that they motor driver is short circuit protected, but that is when the motor is solidly connected to the decoder.  I agree with Mark, and would not recommend this setup.