Kato BigBoy pic - large screen cap for detail

[peteski]

With 2 motors they can have independent chuffing that is in sync with each other at times .

The  elephant in the room is that you will likely need 2 sound decoders (at $100+ each) if using virtual cam (motor BEMF), or 2 physical cams if you expect the engines to go out of sync (one engine slipping a but occasionally).  I believe that was Bob Gilmore expectation.

If a single decoder is used with a sound file for simple articulated engine, then you will still get the uneven beat of 2 steam engines, but they not have that special occasional out-of-sync effect.  I'm also not sure how a single decoder driving 2 motors will behave.  Theoretically since both shoudl see the same load, it might work, but will it?

[robert3985]

Bob;
What is this "transition era" you keep talking about? I haven't heard a manufacturer seriously address that "era" in some time. On the other hand, it keeps my bank account from shrinking... With a smile.
Kind regards,
Bill

Bill, HaHa!...Actually, my bank account has been shrinking a bit these last two years with the release of ScaleTrains Standard Turbines, of which I had to buy a bagful...and an extra fuel tender too!  If I already didn't have several brass Key UP-ized USRA Light MacArthurs (Mikados) I would have bought several of the lovely BLI Light Mikes with sound, even if their drivers were solid and the stack wasn't a big, fat Sweeney stack...

Now that the 5511 has been donated to the Railroading Heritage of Midwest America for restoration, I fully expect to see an N-scale version of this very UP TTT in the next five years...which would just about complete what I think I need for UP steam engines!... Unless, of course Kato decides to do an FEF-2, or an FEF-3 without the Worthington SA feedwater heater.

Then, of course, I would bet that Scaletrains has a Veranda Turbine in the works right now...another bag of turbines to buy!...

I'm a pretty happy camper right now... 

Photo (1) - Bag O' Turbines....


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

The  elephant in the room is that you will likely need 2 sound decoders (at $100+ each) if using virtual cam (motor BEMF), or 2 physical cams if you expect the engines to go out of sync (one engine slipping a but occasionally).  I believe that was Bob Gilmore expectation.

If a single decoder is used with a sound file for simple articulated engine, then you will still get the uneven beat of 2 steam engines, but they not have that special occasional out-of-sync effect.  I'm also not sure how a single decoder driving 2 motors will behave.  Theoretically since both shoudl see the same load, it might work, but will it?

@peteski  Peter, When I read about the possibility that Kato might install two motors in their Big Boy, I thought off-the-cuff that it would be cool if the out-of-sync sound that was actually registered to each engine would be possible.  However, the Soundtraxx Tsunamis that I install in my Athearn Big Boys and Challengers have a sound function that is like an occasionally out-of-sync sound, but it is only able to be synchronized with one engine since there is no slippage on the Athearn models.

It sounds pretty cool, and truthfully, when running them on my layout and at shows, I am not paying close enough attention to notice that one set of chuffs is not in sync with either the front or rear engine.

I would be surprised if Kato actually does two motors...as I see no advantage to it other than a separate motor for the front engine would weigh it down, so it would pull like there's no tomorrow!  And THAT is a big advantage, which is why I hope they do a version that represents Big Boy as it was while still in service in the 40's and 50's.

Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore

[wcfn100]

Let's play 'count the motors'.   

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Jason

[peteski]

@peteski 
I would be surprised if Kato actually does two motors...as I see no advantage to it other than a separate motor for the front engine would weigh it down, so it would pull like there's no tomorrow!  And THAT is a big advantage, which is why I hope they do a version that represents Big Boy as it was while still in service in the 40's and 50's.

Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore

Bob, that is not quite what you mentioned in a post some time ago responding to my post:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842
We had additional discussion later in that thread (basically going over what we are discussing now).

The technical drawing in the FB picture linked to earlier clearly shows 2 coreless motors with conical flywheels.
Most N scale motors have lots of excess power compared the weight of the loco.  The weight of the loco (directly related to its adhesion) will be the limiting factor when it comes to its pulling power (regardless if there is one or two motors).  Actually with a single motor, more weight could be added to the boiler, increasing the adhesion.  A single motor would still have more than ample power to get the model moving under load. And in single motor design the entire weight of the boiler (motor, ballast weight) rests on the pivot points of both engines.   Even if the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the boiler, the weight distribution of 50/50% on both engines could be achieved.

Also just to bring in the full history of this announcement, quoting my post from 2021:

Kato Big Boy was "officially" announced back in 2019.
Earlier that year, there was a Kato poll.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895

 We also had discussions about it in 2020.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739

And a discussion about possibly a dual-motor mechanism.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978
And another one  (unfortunately the image in that post is no longer on Kato website, but it is the same one as the one on FB mentioned earlier in this thread).
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0

[Chris333]

And the flywheels are a bigger diameter than the armature so they actually work.

[peteski]

And the flywheels are a bigger diameter than the armature so they actually work.

Well, any  diameter flywheel will "work", but the bigger diameter ones will have more energy stored.  And with coreless motors (no armature, just a very light winding "basket"), any diameter flywheel will work even better than with a conventional iron-armature motor.

But even with typical Atlas type motor, any size mass (flywheel) on the motor shaft will provide the flywheel effect. Even if it is same diameter as the armature.  But I do agree that the larger a flywheel is, the better it will work.

[mike_lawyer]

How many Big Boys will the market bear?  BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.

Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher?  These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.

[robert3985]

Bob, that is not quite what you mentioned in a post some time ago responding to my post:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg708842#msg708842
We had additional discussion later in that thread (basically going over what we are discussing now).

The technical drawing in the FB picture linked to earlier clearly shows 2 coreless motors with conical flywheels.
Most N scale motors have lots of excess power compared the weight of the loco.  The weight of the loco (directly related to its adhesion) will be the limiting factor when it comes to its pulling power (regardless if there is one or two motors).  Actually with a single motor, more weight could be added to the boiler, increasing the adhesion.  A single motor would still have more than ample power to get the model moving under load. And in single motor design the entire weight of the boiler (motor, ballast weight) rests on the pivot points of both engines.   Even if the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the boiler, the weight distribution of 50/50% on both engines could be achieved.

Also just to bring in the full history of this announcement, quoting my post from 2021:

Kato Big Boy was "officially" announced back in 2019.
Earlier that year, there was a Kato poll.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46480.msg614895#msg614895

 We also had discussions about it in 2020.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47418.0
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=50014.msg673739#msg673739

And a discussion about possibly a dual-motor mechanism.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51931.msg707978#msg707978
And another one  (unfortunately the image in that post is no longer on Kato website, but it is the same one as the one on FB mentioned earlier in this thread).
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=53596.0

Hey Peter...I'm getting old and I didn't go back and pull all the references...just what I remembered!  If they do it, GREAT!...but, I'll believe it when I see it.  AND, just because there are early engineering drawings doesn't mean they're gonna actually make it that way.  Anyway, it's an interesting topic, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it since I probably won't be getting any Kato 4014's in excursion configuration since it wouldn't fit the era I'm modeling.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

How many Big Boys will the market bear?  BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.

Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher?  These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.

I have no idea how many Big Boys the market will bear, but right now I've got nine Athearn Big Boys....and I want four more...and I'll be waiting with 'bated breath to see the BLI models with hopes they're better than the Athearn models...which I am not dissatisfied with at all, especially after I shorten the tender drawbar.

Here's a photo of some of my Big Boys and Challengers I took several years ago.  I need to update it 'cause I've got nearly twice this amount now....

Photo (1) - Athearn Big Boys and Challengers at Echo Yard several years ago:


Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore

[kiwi_al]

How many Big Boys will the market bear?  BLI is releasing theirs early next year, Kato is going to release their model, and Athearn came out with theirs not long ago.

Can we get a decent 2-10-x mechanism in N scale, or a nice small switcher?  These are two glaring holes in N scale steam that no one seems to want to fill.

tsk tsk read your own post 

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51215.15

[robert3985]

tsk tsk read your own post 

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51215.15

I can like more than one engine at a time... 

Cheerio!!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

I have feeling that the majority of their Big Boy sales will be in Japan (not in U.S.). After all, that is their primary market and they have lots of fans there.

I wish we had the sales numbers for the various GG1s produced by multiple companies.  There is yet another GG1 coming form BLI correct?.

[CBQ Fan]

I feel like most buyers will be loyal to a specific brand. I will buy Kato’s but have less interest in Athearn’s and absolutely no interest in BLI’s.  I think all three have their strengths and I own engines from all three companies. It is just something at this price point my needs and comfort level cross at Kato.

[ncbqguy]

It may be the photo, but as they say in the South, ''There's just something not right about that (Big) Boy".   
The rods and wheels look like some Del Prado / Americon static model and the whole thing lacks "presence".  The BLI and Athearn look right.   
It is a Kato Japan project....for the brand-loyal Japanese that only want a Kato.  When I was still at Kato USA none of the staff thought it was a winning project and it has suppressed new Kato North American projects for over 15 years....as we all warned.
Charlie Vlk