Author Topic: Can a soldering iron be too hot?  (Read 2174 times)

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Scottl

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Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« on: September 27, 2022, 06:15:29 PM »
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I'm making turnouts with copper ties and code 55 NS rail.  I was finding the solder (63/37 Sb-Pb rosin core) was taking a long time to melt with the indirect heat of the iron tip.  I was placing the tip against the opposite side of the rail and trying to indirectly heat the solder into the joint.  I grew impatient and increased my iron temperature to 850 degrees and it helped things move along.  But I found I was getting a lot of black sooty material building up on the iron and the solder would become brittle before melting (small pieces would break off).  I'm not sure what the source of the soot was, perhaps it was the rosin or fiberglass in the ties.  I'm also thinking that my ebay-special solder might be poor quality and the impurities are a factor here.

This left me wondering, is there an optimal temperature I should be using?  If the iron is too hot, can this cause other issues?  I know there are some very experienced folk here so any insights would be appreciated.

peteski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2022, 08:47:23 PM »
+1
Scott, I would say that 850 F is needlesly high.  I would not go over 750 F.  Such a high temperature can cause the copper to delaminate from the fiberglass/epoxy board. The black crud is likely burned flux and some oxides from the hot solder.  BTW for reference, melting temperature of 63/37 solder is 361 F(183 C).

From your description I suspect that you are using a dry tip touching dry rail.  That results in very poor heat transfer.  Also unlike sweating copper pipes (where indirect heat is used ), I don't see anything wrong with placing the iron's tip on the same side as where the solder is applied.  Having a tip coated with liquid solder and applying some additional (non-acidic) liquid or paste flux will greatly improve heat transfer.

So having a clean tip coated with solder, using some additional flux, and making sure the soldered areas are bare clean metal should give you much better results.

The other thing I want to mention that while 64/37 solder is good for electronic work, it is  not very strong.  I think you would be better off using one of the silver bearing solders for your task.  That solder is much stronger.  I don't have any specifics, but hopefully @robert3985  will chime in. He always has excellent recommendations for soldering rail and for the Superior brand flux.
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ednadolski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2022, 08:49:53 PM »
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Are you 'wetting' the tip of the iron with a small bit of solder before applying the tip to the joint?   That's important to get a good heat transfer.  It is also important to use flux, and make sure the PCB copper is clean.

There are also tip cleaners that you can use, which you will need more often at higher temps.  An 850 F. temp seems excessive, esp. for a lead-based solder. You may have an overheated/damaged tip that should be replaced.  FWIW, I use about 600 F., but that is for a lead-free solder that requires a higher temperature.

Safety tip, I really prefer lead-free solder for trackwork, since filing frogs and such can leave lead-bearing dust and filings behind, even after cleaning.

Ed

Scottl

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2022, 09:03:04 PM »
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Thanks both, I have not done much of this type of soldering before so I was improvising.  I was definitely too hot, but both of you mentioned something I wasn't doing:  my iron was dry and I didn't clean the copper ties very thoroughly. 

Given I was basically doing it all wrong, I did manage to come up with a serviceable turnout so this is quite promising.  I'll try your suggestions with my next effort tomorrow.

I will search through some of the track threads about the solder mix to see if I can come up with a better alternative.   

dem34

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2022, 01:30:25 AM »
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Part of indirect heat is that solder likes to wick toward the source of heat on a clean surface, which gives a much stronger joint with PCB ties since the solder is bonded along the entire rail foot as opposed to tacked in a small gob along one side when you put the iron on the inside of the rail and the solder wire on the outside.\
Of course, works best with lead solder, I have however been trying to get the hang of using the SuperSafe Tin/Silver solder with the organic flux that @robert3985 recommends in his writeups. Works the same way just takes a bit longer.

But I may have also done the same thing Scott is alluding to since I bought a smaller Pencil tip for the changeover when I used to use a mini chisel that I can't find locally anymore.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 01:32:12 AM by dem34 »
-Al

nkalanaga

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 01:52:21 AM »
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-Al:  My mini-chisel broke many years ago, and the iron itself is long out of production.  I cut the tip off, leaving just the part that screws to the iron, drilled a 1/16 inch hole in the end, and stuck a piece press-fit of copper wire in it.  Filed the end of the wire to a point, heated and tinned it, and it works very well for N scale track and LED wiring projects.

I still have a larger chisel tip that I can use for larger projects/
N Kalanaga
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peteski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 02:27:22 AM »
+1
Part of indirect heat is that solder likes to wick toward the source of heat on a clean surface, which gives a much stronger joint with PCB ties since the solder is bonded along the entire rail foot as opposed to tacked in a small gob along one side when you put the iron on the inside of the rail and the solder wire on the outside.\

True, but even if the tinned soldering iron tip is on the same side as the solder and flux, if you dwell on that spot long enough for the heat to permeate the entire joint area, the solder will still spread by wickinig, and fill the entire joint,  This can be easily observed when I solder photoetched brass kits.  But cleanliness and using flux are vital for this to occur.
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wvgca

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 08:57:25 AM »
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yes, that is too hot .. turn it down a couple hundred degrees ... and wet the iron first .. and you can heat the 'same' side and just let the solder wick over [with some flux, liquid or paste]

JeffB

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2022, 10:30:47 AM »
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As others have said, but I'll repeat because it's important...

Make sure both surfaces are clean.  Use the appropriate flux.  Flux is your friend when soldering, it really makes a huge difference in how the solder flows, and heat transfer (along with a "wet" tip on your iron).

Again, use flux, the correct flux...  Helps a bunch!

Jeff

ednadolski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2022, 10:38:26 AM »
+1
Again, use flux, the correct flux...  Helps a bunch!

This one comes with the @robert3985 seal of approval:  ;)

https://www.hnflux.com/page22.html

(Just don't knock the open bottle over, it is a bear to clean up.... ask me how I know....)

Ed

PS - avoid using an acid flux for trackwork.... it's doable with all the proper cleanup and such, but to my mind not worth the extra efforts.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 10:42:53 AM by ednadolski »

nkalanaga

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2022, 12:02:54 PM »
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I don't know about modern fluxes, but the advice in the past was NEVER use an acid flux for electrical work.  And model railroad track is electrical work.
N Kalanaga
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ednadolski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2022, 01:47:40 PM »
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I don't know about modern fluxes, but the advice in the past was NEVER use an acid flux for electrical work.  And model railroad track is electrical work.

It looks like FastTracks still promotes use of acid fluxes for trackwork (with some nominal CYA-type caveats).  JMHO, I think it is too misleading for beginners.  Stick with the Supersafe rosins (or the equivalent).

Ed
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 01:50:27 PM by ednadolski »

robert3985

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2022, 05:24:06 AM »
+7
Yes, you can have too hot a tip...which melts ties, and causes the PCB ties copper cladding to come off, and carbonizes your paste flux sometimes.

I'm going to get into how I do my turnout/track soldering, which entails much more than just soldering iron temperature since it appears from your post you're new at soldering metal model structures.

Soldering turnouts and track is a bit different than soldering for electrical/electronics.  Solder and flux for the electrical stuff is different than what you should be using for building brass/NS/bronze/copper structures, which is what turnouts and track are...structures...models of prototype railroad structures.

Yes, since the rails carry electronic and electrical currents and signals, they are also electronic.

I've built hundreds of N-scale turnouts using the PCB method, starting in the early 1980's because I couldn't stand installing toy-like turnouts on my first Ntrak modules, sooo...I had to learn how to do it by looking in various magazines for articles, the most helpful one being how to build Code 40 turnouts by Larry Kazoyan and Gordon Odegard (February 1976 Model Railroader). The article illustrated two different methods of attaching the rails to ties with Gordy Odegard's method being to solder them to PCB ties instead of using Goodyear Pliobond Cement.  Needless to say, Fast Tracks hadn't been thought of yet.

It's late and I'm not going to get sidetracked too much here, but I am a huge proponent of using silver bearing solder for turnout/track construction.  I use 96/4 Tin/Silver solder, which is 5 times stronger than electronic solders, and melts at 460 deg F (237 deg C)...as opposed to 60/40 Tin/Lead electronic solders which melt at 430 deg F (221 deg F)...only 30 deg F hotter than Tin/Lead

Also, the silver bearing solder has much less carbonization, has less of a fillet, is brighter and doesn't have destructive oxidation like Tin/Lead solders sometimes have...especially when painted over.

Of even more importance is the exclusive use of the best flux for PCB turnout construction made....Superior No. 30 Supersafe Soldering Flux.  It used to be available in both a liquid and a gel, but the gel turns into liquid after a few years, so now I just order standard strength liquid.

Let me emphasize that this flux will revolutionize your soldering...is self-neutralizing from the heat of your solder joint so it's not absolutely necessary to wash your turnouts to clean off any excess flux.  I wash mine when they're finished anyway before installing them on my layout, but...on the few turnouts I've had to repair in place, I don't wash them, and they don't corrode after painting...and some of my hand-built turnouts are over 3 decades old.

As has been already stated, both the solder and flux are available here: https://www.hnflux.com/page35.html   as well as applicators and other handy things for soldering.

As far as soldering techniques are concerned, I'll tell you what has worked for me in the past using the most basic of soldering equipment...and worked very well.

Here's what I used for a couple of decades and for hundreds of turnouts:

(1) My soldering iron was (and still is) an old Realistic (Radio Shack) 35W iron with a wedge tip...nothing special, and I still use it for tinning purposes.

(2) A soldering stand with a damp sponge to clean my iron's tip

(3) A little tin of tinning compound to melt on the tip of my iron's wedge tip before each and every soldered joint

(4) Spare wedge iron tips

However, I've used some of my train buddies' fancy electronic temperature controlled digital irons, and as long as the tip is clean and tinned, I do equally well with a more expensive soldering outfit with a smaller pointy tip.

My techniques are simple.

(1) I wipe my rails down with a paper towel that is wet with rubber cement thinner (Heptane...known by the name Bestine).  This removes most oils and greases that will inhibit making a perfect solder joint.

(2) I wipe my PCB ties with the same stuff for the same reason.

(3) I rub the tops of my PCB ties with a pencil eraser...attached to a wooden pencil.  This easily removes most of the oxidation.

(4) I attempt to keep my greasy/oily fingers off of the surfaces that will be soldered to each other.

(5) The silver solder is .031" in diameter, which is a bit large...so I flatten about 1/2" of it with my flat-nose pliers and split it down the middle with my Xacto knife...forming little rabbit-ears and use these rabbit-ears instead of the full-round solder.  This makes a much more precise method of getting just enough solder into the joint so you have much fewer globs and blobs to clean up.

(6) My iron's tip is ALWAYS clean and covered with a bright silvery tinned tip before EVERY soldered joint.

(7) I apply a small amount of Superior No.30 Supersafe Soldering Flux where when I position both parts to be soldered, so it wets both parts.

( 8 ) I like to apply the heat to the opposite side of the rail foot...touching both the top of the PCB tie's cladding and the rail simultaneously...and put the smashed, flattened and thinned silver-bearing solder to the opposite side of the rail in the same place as the iron's tip is on the opposite side of the rail...PFFfft!...the flux evaporates, the solder melts, and the iron's heat draws it under the railfoot towards the iron's tip.  When I see a thin fillet of solder right where I have the iron...I remove the iron, and let the joint cool.  This can be done very fast and precisely with just a little practice.

(9) If you get blobs and globs of solder that you're not happy with on some joints (it always happens) I use a fine de-soldering copper wick to remove them...or if they're not too big, I'll heat them up and wipe them across the top of my PCB tie..basically tinning the top of the tie.  You won't see this after you paint, weather and ballast your track.

For more precision, since the turn of the century I use my 250W (turned waaay down) American Beauty Resistance Soldering Station, holding the rail in place with the tweezer tool...applying both flux and solder the same, stepping on my power foot pedal...watching the solder melt and run to both sides...get off the pedal, continue to hold the rail in place with the tweezer a few seconds until the joint cools...then go the next joint.  No tinning or cleaning of iron tips and being able to hold, solder, hold and let cool much more efficiently. If you're planning on building a lot of turnouts, I'd think seriously about budgeting for one of these.

So...that's about it.  I could get into how to cut gaps in your PCB ties so they disappear after painting and weathering, how to make your frogs look better, how to hinge and make your point rails look more realistic...but the advice in this post should solve your soldering problems if you follow it exactly.

Photo (1) - A little monolithic turnout construction at my bench using these materials and techniques:


Good luck and have fun!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

ednadolski

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 09:30:26 AM »
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@robert3985  this is some really great stuff -- would you consider making a YouTube to demonstrate the tools/materials/techniques? That would be a *great* benefit for many model track builders, whether they are experienced or trying it out for the first time.

Even better - a full demo turnout build, if you would have the time/inclination.  8) 8) 8)

Thx,
Ed

Scottl

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Re: Can a soldering iron be too hot?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2022, 09:39:33 AM »
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Thanks @robert3985 that is all very helpful!  I had some success with a colder iron and typical solder and flux but will try to get my hands on some of these items for my future work.

I've assembled a few turnouts now and I am starting to get the hang of the work.  Everyone's feedback has been helpful, thanks again.