Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited

[nickelplate759]

As I'm planning my NKP-near-Ft Wayne layout, I'm including a junction with the Wabash at New Haven.
There were two Wabash day trains through this junction in the 1950s - the Cannonball (once each direction). and at two at night -the Detroit Limited (northbound) and the St. Louis Limited (southbound).

There are plenty of pictures to be found of the Cannonball, and its normal 1950s consist of 6 heavyweight cars (baggage, baggage-rpo, 2 coaches, diner, observation-lounge) painted blue is pretty cool.   I can't find any pictures of the night trains from that era.  I can find a Wabash timetable from 1959 (later than I would prefer), but it just says that there was a ("Blue" series) 14-4 sleeper, a 6 double-bedroom Buffet-Lounge, and coaches (doesn't say how many).

Anyone got some pointers to what the coaches would be, how many there might have been, and what the 6-dbl-bedroom-buffet-lounge might have been?

My usual internet searches turn up nothing, and there aren't any hints in the archive of Jerry Laboda's passenger car photo site.

[Sokramiketes]

Oops, you were looking for Wabash cars not NKP...  EDITED

[nickelplate759]

Yeah - I've got enough info on the NKP trains through Fort Wayne.

[thomasjmdavis]

I have a timetable dated Oct 28, 1956.
New Haven is shown on the passenger timetable for #2 and #3 as 5 miles east of Ft Wayne, but it does not indicate either train stopping there, and there is no "f" for flagstop.
However, as I look at the timetable, it appears that the cars headed for Toledo take a different route east of New Haven. These would be Train 12, which leaves Ft Wayne at 4 am eastbound, and DOES show a stop at New Haven at 4:12 am; and train 13 westbound, which does not show a stop at New Haven, but arrives in Ft Wayne at 9:30 PM.

As of that date, the equipment listed for the Detroit Limited-#2, departs St Louis at 6:40 PM CT, Arr Ft Wayne 3:10 am  Lv Ft Wayne 3:32 am CT- Arr Detroit 7:45 AM ET
12roomette-4 dbl bedroom (Lowell Smith's trainman version or build from sides)
8 sec- 5 Dbl Bedroom (Heavyweight - Pecos river brass)
Dining Lounge car  (I'm guessing heavyweight as the lightweights were on the Blue Bird and City of KC)
Chair cars (2 or more from St. Louis and picks up and dropping a coach in Ft Wayne for #12 for Toledo- ). Guessing these are modernized heavyweights.

#3 Eastbound St. Louis Ltd. Depart Detroit 8:20 pm, Lv Ft Wayne 10:13 pm Arr St Louis 7:30am CT
Cars Westbound are the same, although the consist list shows the 8-5 first.

[nickelplate759]

Thanks!  Close enough for me.  I'll guess on the head end car(s).

No, it didn't  stop in New Haven, but that's  approximately where it crossed the Nickel Plate.

[thomasjmdavis]

The 2 most common rebuilt coach styles on Wabash would look like
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wab1234.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wab1398.jpg

On my own "Banner Blue" I used a MTL diner to represent a Wabash diner-parlor. One side of the MTL car is very similar, on the other, the small windows are not right, but no one notices that but me.  The Wabash cars were modified from full diners- so the overall look is pretty good.  The only way to distinguish the lounge from the dining room was that they used different color schemes on the furniture and linen- but kept the tables in the lounge area.

Gary Roe still had decals available for the 50s era lettering shown in those photos as of a couple years ago.

[thomasjmdavis]

Thanks!  Close enough for me.  I'll guess on the head end car(s).

No, it didn't  stop in New Haven, but that's  approximately where it crossed the Nickel Plate.

You are welcome.
On the head end cars- the Wheels of Time 70' baggage is very close, maybe identical to the Wabash car.  They did produce some early on in Wabash blue (they also did the UP yellow Wabash car) with silver roofs, but the roofs are simple enough to paint to black for the 50s. 

I took a look at my book on RPO routes. It shows a Wabash route St. Louis-Toledo until 1959. Plus, of course, St. Louis- Detroit.  So, the Toledo trains (the only ones I can see that connected to St Louis from Toledo) would likely carry a mail-baggage car. The 4 full RPOs that the Wabash had after WWII were run primarily on the Cannonball, but would be a possibility on either train. The Wabash originally purchased a large number of full RPOs, but all but 4 were rebuilt into mail-baggage in the 1920s.  As originally built, they looked like the MTL RPO.  The 4 remaining full cars were rebuilt in a configuration closer to the Atlas offering- but 3 of the windows were spaced closer together than the other 3.
The mail-baggage could be made from a MTL RPO by keeping 3 windows on each side at one end, blanking the others, and adding a 5.5' or 6' baggage door at the other end.

[apudelek]

Cool project!  Who doesn't love a night train??

As far as the modernized heavyweight coaches go, you might have a pretty simple job on your hands to approximate #1398:  you could cut off the mullions on an MTL paired-window coach and paint the edges with a light grey or white...  The rounded corners on the windows on both cars might be tricky to replicate though.  Maybe some vents to the repainted roof and you'd be in business.

[nickelplate759]

I note that there were at least two different Pullman 8-5 car plans - the one that Pecos River Brass modeled (two vestibules), and a plan 4036-E for rebuilt cars in the "Clover" name series that only has one vestibule.    Anyone know which one the Wabash used?

[Mark5]

I note that there were at least two different Pullman 8-5 car plans - the one that Pecos River Brass modeled (two vestibules), and a plan 4036-E for rebuilt cars in the "Clover" name series that only has one vestibule.    Anyone know which one the Wabash used?

According the databases available for download at the Pullman Project, both of the Clover cars were 4036B (Clover Leaf, & Clover Plateau, both retired June 1963 and off the N&W roster by 1/1/65 ).

http://www.pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

[nickelplate759]

According the databases available for download at the Pullman Project, both of the Clover cars were 4036B (Clover Leaf, & Clover Plateau, both retired June 1963 and off the N&W roster by 1/1/65 ).

http://www.pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

Cool - so now I know the names and the plan number, which is different from 4036E.  A little Googling and it seems that the Pecos River car is not Plan 4036B, although I don't know what it is.

[thomasjmdavis]

I compared my car to the drawings of a 4036A in Mainline Modeler Apr. 86, and I think that is what it is.  I don't know what the differences are in the various 8-5 versions, which MM lists in the article as 4036 to 4036J.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

However (more confusion)- the 1956 Timetable I referenced earlier ALSO shows 2 8-5 cars running in each direction for the Midnight between St. Louis and Chicago.  So,  in 1956, Wabash needed 6 of these cars to cover all the routes, the ORPTE for 1954 only shows Clover Leaf and Clover Plateau (unless some of the cars were not "Clover") so they must have been using other cars from the Pullman pool.

[nickelplate759]

Here is what claims to be plans for 4036B - someone was apparently selling them on eBay.



Note only one vestibule.

[Mark5]

However (more confusion)- the 1956 Timetable I referenced earlier ALSO shows 2 8-5 cars running in each direction for the Midnight between St. Louis and Chicago.  So,  in 1956, Wabash needed 6 of these cars to cover all the routes, the ORPTE for 1954 only shows Clover Leaf and Clover Plateau (unless some of the cars were not "Clover") so they must have been using other cars from the Pullman pool.

There are two other heavyweights showing on the NWHS site as surviving to/near the N&W merger: "Emerald Park" and "New York University"

[thomasjmdavis]

There are two other heavyweights showing on the NWHS site as surviving to/near the N&W merger: "Emerald Park" and "New York University"

The 1962 Wabash roster lists Emerald Park as an 8-4. Our late friend Jerry Laboda identified the sister car Emerald Vale as 8 sec.- 4 dbl bedroom.  It strikes me that the Emerald cars may have sometimes subbed when an 8-5 was out of service. Emerald Vale was out of service by 1962, but as Mark5 noted, Emerald Park served to the end.

New York University was a 12 sec. - 2 dbl bedroom car.  Other "University" cars I can find of the same 12-2 configuration are identified as plan 4046, rebuilt from plan 2410F 12-1 cars.

Here is a detail from the 1954 ORPTE with the names of the Wabash owned HW sleepers that were leased to Pullman for operation. They had 5 additional old HW sleepers that were on the property for other purposes .

The car hidden under the Railwire watermark is the previously mentioned "Emerald Park".