Author Topic: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited  (Read 2498 times)

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nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2022, 06:53:54 PM »
+1
The 1962 Wabash roster lists Emerald Park as an 8-4. Our late friend Jerry Laboda identified the sister car Emerald Vale as 8 sec.- 4 dbl bedroom.  It strikes me that the Emerald cars may have sometimes subbed when an 8-5 was out of service. Emerald Vale was out of service by 1962, but as Mark5 noted, Emerald Park served to the end.

New York University was a 12 sec. - 2 dbl bedroom car.  Other "University" cars I can find of the same 12-2 configuration are identified as plan 4046, rebuilt from plan 2410F 12-1 cars.

Here is a detail from the 1954 ORPTE with the names of the Wabash owned HW sleepers that were leased to Pullman for operation. They had 5 additional old HW sleepers that were on the property for other purposes .

The car hidden under the Railwire watermark is the previously mentioned "Emerald Park".

...
That list is very helpful.  I looked them up in the Pullman database and googled for the configurations:  MT means it should be a good match to the Micro-Trains car.

East Arcadia   Plan 3410   12-1   MT
McMurray           Plan 3410   12-1   MT
Dorchester   Plan 3410   12-1   MT
Gloucester           Plan 3410   12-1   MT
McGlone           Plan 3410   12-1   MT
Knollwood           Plan 3410A   12-1   MT
Tuscaloosa    Plan 3410A   12-1   MT
Milmay      Plan 2410A, 2410I 12-1   MT
Shardlow           Plan 2410B   12-1      MT

Moyston                 Plan 4046   12-2 (one vestibule)
New York University Plan 4046   12-2 (one vestibule)
American University Plan 4046   12-2 (one vestibule)

Emerald Park   Plan 4022B   8-4
Emerald Vale   Plan 4022B   8-4
New Columbia   Plan 3958   14-sec
New Prospect   Plan 3958   14-sec
Laurel Art   Plan 3979A   8-1-2
Riverdale   Plan 3979A    8-1-2
Centstar   Plan 3979A   8-1-2
Rock Pass   Plan 3979A   8-1-2
Clover Leaf   Plan 4036B   8-5
Clover Plateau    Plan 4036B       8-5
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 06:59:42 PM by nickelplate759 »
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2022, 10:11:06 AM »
+2
Sides for the 14 sec. plan 3958 are available from KV models.  These are highly detailed etchings that are done in 3 layers- window and door inset details, the basic side, and then a delicate piece with beltrail and other raised detail. These make up into very accurate N scale representations.

http://kvmodels.com/passenger-car-details-n/

KV also has sides for a 3979 8-1-2. If would be worthwhile to compare it to photos of a 3979A to see what, if any, external differences there are.

Union Station Products also has some sides for heavyweights. Theirs are intended for use with Archer rivets. Their line includes the plan 4022C 8-4 Emerald sleepers  (they list these as B&O so there may be some B&O specific details, and I don't know how much difference there is between a 4022C and a 4022B Wabash version), and a 4036E 8-5 (again, compare to the 4036B. They also list several diners of various railroads- and might be worth comparing to any given heavyweight diner we might want to model. I can already see myself ordering their L&N diner, after I get more proficient with Archer rivets.
https://unionstationproducts.com/pullman-heavyweight/-4022-c-pullman-b-and-o-heavyweight-8-section-4-bedroom-sleeper  note that you need to select N scale  in the box on the left to get the lower N scale pricing.
 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 10:16:03 AM by thomasjmdavis »
Tom D.

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nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2022, 04:56:45 PM »
+3
On P94 of Carsten's "Passenger Cars, Vol. 1" are drawing by George Trager of plan 4036A  8-5 heavyweight sleepers in the  "Clover" series.

Many times the differences between letter-variants of Pullman plans are minor, such as in the layout of mechanical components, but once in a while there are some significant differences in window spacing.   In this case I have compared the drawings with floor plans for 4036B  and can't find any differences in floorplan or window layout.

That said, kitbashing a dual-vestibule Pullman car (like any of the MT Pullmans) into a single-vestibule car seems non-trivial.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 05:18:42 PM by nickelplate759 »
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2022, 08:16:56 PM »
+1
I found one of the Wheels of Time   Wabash baggage cars.  Unfortunately it's in UP-yellow paint, but that's easily fixed.
I think this is coming together.   This should be close enough to make me happy:

Wheels of Time baggage
Micro Trains RPO-baggage *
Micro Trains paired-window coach
Micro Trains paired-window coach
Micro Trains diner
Railsmith 12-4 Pullman  "Blue Horizon"
Heavyweight Pullman TBD **

*70' car, really should be 60', but I'm going with it.
** simplest solution would be to paint a Micro-Trains 12-1 Pullman and claim it was a (somewhat awkward) substitute for the 8-5 car.

All but the 12-4 will need to be painted.  I have a Gary Roe decal set that should cover the lettering.
I've also acquired a Tomar "Detroit Limited" drumhead, but I'm not sure which sleeper should be the last car of the train.

Oh - I'll need power too.  Maybe I should look for a Kato PA in Wabash paint.
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2022, 12:36:27 PM »
0
Well, the Gary Roe decal set isn't quite what I had hoped.

The road name (WABASH) and Pullman lettering are very closely spaced.  In photos from the mid-to-late 1950s (and 1960s) the road name seems to be spaced out to about 10' on the car side, but on the decals it's just under 7'.    The Pullman lettering also seems too closely spaced.

I can fix that by applying each letter individually of course, and other than that the set does seem to have everything I need.
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2022, 03:42:01 PM »
+1
I was trying to figure out a way to correctly and consistently space out the letters for WABASH, when I realized that the answer was right on my screen.   I took the lettering example drawing from the Wheels of Time website, printed it out scaled to N-scale, and voila, a lettering template!





I did also note that the "Railway Express Agency" lettering is also too close together (and maybe too small) for this car, but no way am I going to cut that apart and place each letter individually.

<edit> This clearly has nothing to do with the Prototype trains - oops! I'll continue this elsewhere </edit>
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 04:34:19 PM by nickelplate759 »
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2022, 10:21:05 PM »
0
You did a nice job "stretching" the "Wabash".  I'm realizing I'm going to need to re-do several of my cars.

I'm feeling guilty about having recommended those decals.  For whatever reason, the size/spacing had not bothered me, but most of the cars I had decaled were streamlined.  There are some cars with lettering very close together, but they appear to be from just before the N&W merger, with the exception of 1 combine that might be close from the 1950s (in terms of photos I can locate).  But certainly, the vast majority of cars, including the Blue Bird consist, used spacing more like your baggage car.

If you don't have a layout for the Pullman lettering on a Wabash car, the layout is the same (I am pretty sure, anyway) as the Pullman lettering for a UP car - except in yellow rather than red. Wabash had a few sleepers painted in UP colors as well.

The WoT spacing is very close to photos I have.  I have one of their cars.  The issue is that the lettering, instead of being the (correct) yellow of the graphic, is a dark metallic gold on the model. 
Tom D.

I have a mind like a steel trap...a VERY rusty, old steel trap.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2022, 11:44:41 PM »
0
@thomasjmdavis - don't feel guilty.  They are the best Wabash passenger car decals available, and they are nicely printed with good color and still durable after many years storage.  I'm happy to have them - not as happy as if they were precisely correct for the cars I'm modeling, but still happy.

And anyway, I'm modeling the NKP primarily - Wabash is just a bonus, since they had a junction in Fort Wayne passenger trains ran through.
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2022, 11:46:51 AM »
0
New challenge - I need to find out the number series for the Wabash RPO-Express cars - the 60' RPOs that had their RPO section shortened and replaced with a baggage area.

I'm loosely representing this with a Micro-Trains RPO-Express, which is 70' and off in many details for the Wabash car, but as close as I can come without more work than I want to invest. But I need to know what number(s) to put on it.  All the photos I have found of such cars don't have legible numbers :(
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Mark5

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2022, 01:02:35 PM »
+1
New challenge - I need to find out the number series for the Wabash RPO-Express cars - the 60' RPOs that had their RPO section shortened and replaced with a baggage area.

I'm loosely representing this with a Micro-Trains RPO-Express, which is 70' and off in many details for the Wabash car, but as close as I can come without more work than I want to invest. But I need to know what number(s) to put on it.  All the photos I have found of such cars don't have legible numbers :(

Hi George,

I'm not sure what cars you are looking for (can't find pix of these, my books are boxed up), but Wabash had "Postal" cars with 60' inside length built by ACF in the 1910s. The number series was 162-179. They retained these numbers on N&W, though only 162, 167, 175, and 179 survived the 1964 merger. All were off the roster by the end of 1967.


nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2022, 01:55:16 PM »
0
That helps a lot.  the only trick is that I think a four of those cars did not get converted to RPO-Express, and I don't know which 4.

It's really hard to find pictures where you can read the numbers.  I make just pick one of the numbers that made it to N&W.
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2022, 07:14:53 PM »
0
Well the Gary Roe decal set has #175 already printed, so I'll probably go with that.
George
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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2022, 06:30:47 PM »
+1
Hi George,

I'm not sure what cars you are looking for (can't find pix of these, my books are boxed up), but Wabash had "Postal" cars with 60' inside length built by ACF in the 1910s. The number series was 162-179. They retained these numbers on N&W, though only 162, 167, 175, and 179 survived the 1964 merger. All were off the roster by the end of 1967.

Sorry, I missed this when it was posted.  Those 4 cars are, indeed, the 4 full 60' RPOs.  (per the Banner Fall 1996 issue on Head End Cars).  The last of the 60' mail-baggage cars (rebuilt from the other numbers in the 162-179 series beginning in 1923 and renumbered to numbers in the 400s) were essentially replaced in 1963 by purchase of 70' mail baggage cars second hand from C&O and numbered Wabash 451-456.

There were more of them, or there was some early renumbering- there is a builder's photo in the same Banner issue of 60' RPO # 182 .
Wabash numbering of mail baggage is a bit confusing.  The cars rebuilt from the 162-179 series had numbers 430-446, but in the middle were a few cars built new by ACF (one of which was 436) with 15' mail compartments, and 2 baggage doors on each side, and appear to be 70' overall.  And then cars 447-450, which were rebuilt from combines, the first 2 in the 40s or early 50s, the latter 2 in the late 50s or early 60s- these cars were about 74', with 30' mail rooms and 2 baggage doors each side).

The 4 full RPOs were originally built in the 3-3/4-2 window pattern resembling the MTL model.  At some point prior to 1950 (I think), they were rebuilt with 6 windows together at one end, more like the Atlas model, although the window spacing is door- 3 windows in original (MTL) spacing- 3 windows closer together-blank space- door  (I hope that makes sense)  That spacing might not apply to all 4, but the couple photos I've seen where I can identify numbers (175,179) are both that way.
Tom D.

I have a mind like a steel trap...a VERY rusty, old steel trap.

nickelplate759

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Re: Wabash Detroit Limited / St. Louis Limited
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2022, 07:49:15 PM »
0
Sorry, I missed this when it was posted.  Those 4 cars are, indeed, the 4 full 60' RPOs.  (per the Banner Fall 1996 issue on Head End Cars).  The last of the 60' mail-baggage cars (rebuilt from the other numbers in the 162-179 series beginning in 1923 and renumbered to numbers in the 400s) were essentially replaced in 1963 by purchase of 70' mail baggage cars second hand from C&O and numbered Wabash 451-456.

There were more of them, or there was some early renumbering- there is a builder's photo in the same Banner issue of 60' RPO # 182 .
Wabash numbering of mail baggage is a bit confusing.  The cars rebuilt from the 162-179 series had numbers 430-446, but in the middle were a few cars built new by ACF (one of which was 436) with 15' mail compartments, and 2 baggage doors on each side, and appear to be 70' overall.  And then cars 447-450, which were rebuilt from combines, the first 2 in the 40s or early 50s, the latter 2 in the late 50s or early 60s- these cars were about 74', with 30' mail rooms and 2 baggage doors each side).

The 4 full RPOs were originally built in the 3-3/4-2 window pattern resembling the MTL model.  At some point prior to 1950 (I think), they were rebuilt with 6 windows together at one end, more like the Atlas model, although the window spacing is door- 3 windows in original (MTL) spacing- 3 windows closer together-blank space- door  (I hope that makes sense)  That spacing might not apply to all 4, but the couple photos I've seen where I can identify numbers (175,179) are both that way.

Doh!  I just finished (yesterday) decalling and clearcoating a MT mail-baggage with the number 175.  Too late to change it now, so don't tell anyone!

I suppose if it ever bothers me enough I will just paint over the numbers (can't remove them without stripping the whole shell) and renumber it.

I do appreciate the information!
George
NKPH&TS #3628

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.