Lowell Smith 12-4 sleeper "Western"

[CBQ Fan]

I am guessing most manufacturers are placing the emphasis how to sell the most units while minimizing cost of complex  manufacturing processes while minimizing warranty costs. Building customization into a product for a small percentage of the customer base who may not all want the same thing doesn’t sound like a sound business practice.

[bigdawgks]

Yea I am sure this is the case, but I do find it a bit perplexing that undecorated and kit (unassembled) models are being ditched by most manufacturers. I can understand that they don't sell as well, and keeping stock of them consumes inventory space, but surely for those companies who are moving towards pre-order based production it must not be a huge overhead to offer these options. I imagine that in reality it comes down to each company's relationship with their factories; diversifying a production run will undoubtedly be pushed back from the factories, but obviously it's been viable in the past even without the solid metric of demand that pre-orders allow.

[thomasjmdavis]

Can somebody post a drawing of the floor plan of the UP "western" series? And does the underbody on the LS model match the prototype?

In the hopes of bringing some peace to this thread....
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/Union-Pacific-Passenger-Diagrams-1941-1967/i-DQRGjm3/A

While the diagram does not show an underbody view, it does show the major underbody parts on the side view.

Since one side of the LS 12-4 is incorrect, you will need to adjust the roomettes to fit the windows, and will only have 5 on that side.

Best I got.  If you want more, you're on your own.

The the index of diagrams for the entire UP fleet (I am not a UP expert, but if anything is missing, I don't know what it is), from the beginning of WWII up to the day before Amtrak, including heavyweights:
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/Union-Pacific-Passenger-Diagrams-1941-1967/

Since one side of the LS 12-4 is incorrect, you will need to adjust the roomettes to fit the windows, and will only have 5 on that side.

[OldEastRR]

Thanks for the info on sleepers. Tho this car is a 10-6, the floor plan is different from the Kato "Pacific" 10-6 -- the aisle next to the bedrooms is on the opposite side of the car. I found this out when I tried to put the LS body on a KATO 10-6 frame. I can easily Dremel-modify the LS interior to match the "Western" config.

Tho this will probably ruffle people's feathers I do have to note that LS did good job on getting the underbody detail correct, yet passed on the one wall. Considering one rarely sees a N scale car's underbody but the sides are pretty visible, I don't why this choice was made. I'm not going to put in a new window -- I have enough adjustments to make to the car already.  I'm looking at how to install KATO-type lighting kit. Plus replace the trucks with KATO ones. 

[Sokramiketes]

Are you trying to imply LS tooled a new underframe for the 12-4 sleeper?

[thomasjmdavis]

Earlier today, I compared the brand new LS "Western" sleeper to a 15 year old Walthers 10-6.  The underbodies are identical.  No new tooling there.  On the other hand...given that the mechanics under the floor were fairly standardized by the mid 50s, if the 12-4 by ACF and the 10-6 by Pullman had similar placement of water tanks, brake cylinders and battery boxes, it wouldn't shock me.

As to why he only did one side of the car- and did not tell us when soliciting orders? The only thing I can think of is that maybe he had a set of tooling for a 10-6 with one damaged side, and it was an easier fix to fill one window and partially fill 4 others than to restore the side to the original configuration.  But that is just an out of left field guess.

[Sokramiketes]

I'd say that we need to look at this not as new tooling, but to consider it an experiment.  Lowell's experimenting with the factory to see if they can tool a new car side and window insert.  He then has data on how well the car comes out, how much that costs, and how doable it is in terms of sales.  Then, he can decide to keep painting the same coach and 10-6 sleeper sides, or if the market supports improvements.

The basic theory that the market won't support a full on newly tooled 12-4 sleeper is probably correct.  And you needs to start tracking the decisions made from that point forward. 

It's a concept car, in my mind.  And I don't have inside info, but that's what I would have done if I bought Walthers tooling and was trying to make a go at it without blowing too much capital. 

[thomasjmdavis]

I'd say that we need to look at this not as new tooling, but to consider it an experiment.  Lowell's experimenting with the factory to see if they can tool a new car side and window insert.  He then has data on how well the car comes out, how much that costs, and how doable it is in terms of sales.  Then, he can decide to keep painting the same coach and 10-6 sleeper sides, or if the market supports improvements.

The basic theory that the market won't support a full on newly tooled 12-4 sleeper is probably correct.  And you needs to start tracking the decisions made from that point forward. 

It's a concept car, in my mind.  And I don't have inside info, but that's what I would have done if I bought Walthers tooling and was trying to make a go at it without blowing too much capital.

But he's already committed to several new cars- the NP coach and duplex sleeper, the Frisco/MKT diner and his baggage retooled into an RPO.  I assume all 4 have both sides.  And 3 of them have new tooling (I think, anyway, I don't see them as adapted from any of his previous cars) for the sides, although I assume they utilize the same ends and roofs (with some vents moved around?).

I would agree that there is not enough market to support a tooled from scratch 12-4, which is why I was surprised he was doing it.  There were any number of more likely subjects. 

If this was an experiment, then he owed it to us guinea pigs to tell us it was an experiment, and that it was a "one sided" experiment.  That information certainly never made it into the promotional material I saw.  Did I miss something?

[OldEastRR]

And I just got an e-mail from him today saying they now have lighting kits for his cars. With capacitors, track powered pick-up. I assume they'll be like the Walthers ones, with mods. If any one of you "guinea pigs" want to try them out, come back here and let us know what you think of it.

[Sokramiketes]

But he's already committed to several new cars- the NP coach and duplex sleeper, the Frisco/MKT diner and his baggage retooled into an RPO.  I assume all 4 have both sides.  And 3 of them have new tooling (I think, anyway, I don't see them as adapted from any of his previous cars) for the sides, although I assume they utilize the same ends and roofs (with some vents moved around?).

I would agree that there is not enough market to support a tooled from scratch 12-4, which is why I was surprised he was doing it.  There were any number of more likely subjects. 

If this was an experiment, then he owed it to us guinea pigs to tell us it was an experiment, and that it was a "one sided" experiment.  That information certainly never made it into the promotional material I saw.  Did I miss something?

You're right, he's moved in that direction.  But what was quoted at the factory first and what was delivered first?  In another life, or maybe later in this life, I'd love to be learning the same things Lowell is about making model trains. 

Here's what he said on the listings:  "RailSmith has tooled some new parts and used existing ‘Pullman’ parts to create this never-before-in-N-Scale sleeper! So we call this a Classic version."  So while he didn't say it was a one sided car, he was also pretty coy about not leaving out the possibility.  And "Classic" is a trigger for me to research the car to see if it fits my 90% or better rule.

Now, could we pre-research the car, since no photos were shared of the other side?  No.  So we're allowed to feel a bit burnt. 

I've been doing Wabash cars again, and am getting the itch to work on one. 

1) Swap roof for an ACF style riveted roof from a Kato UP smoothside.  This gets the top duct too.
2) Move a window?  Or cut out a whole window section from the newly tooled side of one car and swap it into the opposite side of the other...  One I could save paint, but the other way is an easy paint job and then the lettering will match the Gary Roe lettering I've been using.  Someday I'm going to run out of those decals though... need to start rationing for the important cars.
3) Add the missing batten above the windows.  If I keep the paint, will try clear vinyl overlay, just to catch the light.  If I repaint, .005" styrene strip. 
4) Figure out what train I'm going to use it on!

[CBQ Fan]

From what I can tell Lowell is the whole staff, maybe some help from his wife. He has a steady production of cars, schemes, and road names you can’t find anywhere else. The quality is on par with other similar products. He defines what a Classic Car is and tells you when something is prototype.   He has always responded to my inquiries very quickly, usually less than 24 hours. To imply anything is below board is way off base.

[Sokramiketes]

From what I can tell Lowell is the whole staff, maybe some help from his wife. He has a steady production of cars, schemes, and road names you can’t find anywhere else. The quality is on par with other similar products. He defines what a Classic Car is and tells you when something is prototype.   He has always responded to my inquiries very quickly, usually less than 24 hours. To imply anything is below board is way off base.

Well said.  Can you imagine us being around when Rowa released the corrugated dome car that should have been smoothside but was matched to the rest of the tooling?  That would be a fun thread.  Maybe we start it up on April 1 just to see what would churn out.   

[nickelplate759]

...
4) Figure out what train I'm going to use it on!

I'm using mine on the St. Louis / Detroit Limited.   Of course, all the other cars in the train are heavyweights.

[CBQ Fan]

Well said.  Can you imagine us being around when Rowa released the corrugated dome car that should have been smoothside but was matched to the rest of the tooling?  That would be a fun thread.  Maybe we start it up on April 1 just to see what would churn out.   

If we were around when N scale started there would be no N scale! LOL!!

[Sokramiketes]

If we were around when N scale started there would be no N scale! LOL!!

LOL