Atlas B30-7

[carmelmodelrr]

I think I've tried most of the suggestions.  Perhaps most important was that I ran the three locos separated but within close reach of each other when the locos were "cold" and again when they had been run for some time.  There was no noticeable difference--and they all run at close to the same speed.  I'm reluctantly concluding that I need to shorten the consist--that these locos just don't have the pulling power of some of my other locos.
 Although I'm putting the topic to rest, I still can't figure out why they pull well when they are cold and pulling power diminishes as they heat up.

Thank you to all for your responses and suggestions.

carmelmodelrr

[bobdobbs]

Bullfrog snot.
http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/

[djconway]

Bullfrog snot.
http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/

I would resist using Bullfrog snot.  N scale diesels have notoriously poor electrical pickup as they are.
Just my opinion, ymmv

[robert3985]

I would resist using Bullfrog snot.  N scale diesels have notoriously poor electrical pickup as they are.
Just my opinion, ymmv

Soooo...why is it again that "N scale diesels have notoriously poor electrical pickup..." ???  Why are they inherently different than HO diesels, or S scale diesels, or O scale diesels, or Z-scale diesels????

Just askin'....

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Soooo...why is it again that "N scale diesels have notoriously poor electrical pickup..." ???  Why are they inherently different than HO diesels, or S scale diesels, or O scale diesels, or Z-scale diesels????

Just askin'....

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

That "notoriously poor" statement IMO was a bit strong, but the fact is that N scale weights much less than equivalent H0 scale loco, so the wheels will have less weight on them to assure good contact with the track, and the smaller size model is less forgiving of uneven track. Come on Bob, not everybody's trackwork is as perfect as yours. 

The "snot" stuff applied to the wheel tread not only prevents that wheel from picking up power, it also (due to sligthlu increased tread diameter) likely changes the geometry of the truck which can also degrade its electrical pickup ability.

[robert3985]

That "notoriously poor" statement IMO was a bit strong, but the fact is that N scale weights much less than equivalent H0 scale loco, so the wheels will have less weight on them to assure good contact with the track, and the smaller size model is less forgiving of uneven track. Come on Bob, not everybody's trackwork is as perfect as yours. 

The "snot" stuff applied to the wheel tread not only prevents that wheel from picking up power, it also (due to sligthlu increased tread diameter) likely changes the geometry of the truck which can also degrade its electrical pickup ability.

@peteski A "bit" strong??  I've run on both HO and N-scale layouts/modules and frankly, the N-scale stuff runs better...I mean waaay better.  And not on just my layout/modules. 

N-scale is regularly run on Ntrak modules which have "joiner tracks" at either end, and regularly have "notoriously" bad trackwork there...too large of gaps, ski jumps, all sorts of misalignments...and the N-scale trains just keep chugging along with their 60 to 100 car trains after the initial setup.  Maybe the N-gauge trains back in the 1960's and 1970's, y'know...the TOY trains were bad, with an occasional bad design coming out afterward, but those days are long gone.  Modern N-scale (scale) motive power runs excellently in the vast majority of cases, and if the trackwork is too sh!tty for them to run on, it certainly is NOT the engine's fault.

So, what does weight have to do with it anyway?  The contact patch on larger scale wheels is not much bigger than the contact patch on N-scale wheels...what is weight supposed to do?  Squash non-conductive gunk out of the way??  Some of my very best running engines are my smallest ones...the lightest ones...particularly my Life-Like switchers, my Atlas GP-9's and 7's and my Key Consolidations...smooth, slow and reliable.  Worst running engines I ever had was a brass Overland Alco PA-PB-PA set...plenty heavy, C-trucks, wipers everywhere, smooth polished NS wheelsets...ran like crap and I never could get them to run reliably.  Have a good friend who had some in Rio Grande and he literally smoked his during a show.

I used to be on the crew of Lee Nicholas' UCW, a really innovative HO scale layout, and train stoppage was a regular occurrence...which almost never happened on our N-scale Utah N-Railers sectional layout, which was a much larger layout than Lee's, with gaps in the rails at the end of every 6' module.

So...from my experience running N-scale trains and HO scale trains on both permanent and portable modular layouts since the mid 1970's, N-scale runs better than HO.

This is not my "opinion" ...it's my experience.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[davefoxx]

@peteski A "bit" strong??  I've run on both HO and N-scale layouts/modules and frankly, the N-scale stuff runs better...I mean waaay better.  And not on just my layout/modules. 

[...]

This is not my "opinion" ...it's my experience.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

You're drunk. 

DFF

[Ed Kapuscinski]

@peteski A "bit" strong??  I've run on both HO and N-scale layouts/modules and frankly, the N-scale stuff runs better...I mean waaay better.  And not on just my layout/modules. 

N-scale is regularly run on Ntrak modules which have "joiner tracks" at either end, and regularly have "notoriously" bad trackwork there...too large of gaps, ski jumps, all sorts of misalignments...and the N-scale trains just keep chugging along with their 60 to 100 car trains after the initial setup.  Maybe the N-gauge trains back in the 1960's and 1970's, y'know...the TOY trains were bad, with an occasional bad design coming out afterward, but those days are long gone.  Modern N-scale (scale) motive power runs excellently in the vast majority of cases, and if the trackwork is too sh!tty for them to run on, it certainly is NOT the engine's fault.

So, what does weight have to do with it anyway?  The contact patch on larger scale wheels is not much bigger than the contact patch on N-scale wheels...what is weight supposed to do?  Squash non-conductive gunk out of the way??  Some of my very best running engines are my smallest ones...the lightest ones...particularly my Life-Like switchers, my Atlas GP-9's and 7's and my Key Consolidations...smooth, slow and reliable.  Worst running engines I ever had was a brass Overland Alco PA-PB-PA set...plenty heavy, C-trucks, wipers everywhere, smooth polished NS wheelsets...ran like crap and I never could get them to run reliably.  Have a good friend who had some in Rio Grande and he literally smoked his during a show.

I used to be on the crew of Lee Nicholas' UCW, a really innovative HO scale layout, and train stoppage was a regular occurrence...which almost never happened on our N-scale Utah N-Railers sectional layout, which was a much larger layout than Lee's, with gaps in the rails at the end of every 6' module.

So...from my experience running N-scale trains and HO scale trains on both permanent and portable modular layouts since the mid 1970's, N-scale runs better than HO.

This is not my "opinion" ...it's my experience.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

I don't mean to discount your personal experience here, but I'll offer a counter point: In my experience, HO stuff does generally run better for a number of reasons. There's simply more "contact patch", the flywheels are more massive, there's more room for keep alive, and in general tolerances are larger.

That doesn't mean it's perfect, and I have personally watched the biggest model railroad celebrity around replace a balky mikado with another one off the shelf and say something like "you're now extra 626" while to set the old one on its side in a cornfield, but in general, HO stuff still runs better than N.

[peteski]

@peteski
So...from my experience running N-scale trains and HO scale trains on both permanent and portable modular layouts since the mid 1970's, N-scale runs better than HO.

This is not my "opinion" ...it's my experience.

You are obviously correct Bob - N scale rocks!  How could I have held such a wrong opinion about my favorite scale. 

[robert3985]

You are obviously correct Bob - N scale rocks!  How could I have held such a wrong opinion about my favorite scale. 

Hahaha! Well...I'm "right" for my experience.  Yours will probably vary.  I don't know if it's the climate in Utah or what, but stuff like track constantly getting dirty, or high humidity making bacteria grow on the rails, or dust stick to it...isn't a problem either here.  Soooo...

The reason I decided to post this is because a large percentage of several HO layouts' crews here in Utah were N-scalers, and the topic of reliability would come up often, with us being surprised at how well our N-scale stuff ran as opposed to the really nice HO scale layouts we were running on as crew.  Op sessions for us on our N-scale club layout, and our home layouts just didn't include couplers breaking, trains jerking along, constant 0-5-0'ing engines while doing switching moves.  Sure, there are some engines made by some manufacturers that could be considered "notorious" for being "bad"...but that's certainly not the case with N-scale since at least the turn of the century (22 years).  I assume that this is the case in other scales also.

Not a big deal...just a differing opinion, so the rest of ya...get over it!   

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore



 

[u18b]

I think I've tried most of the suggestions.  Perhaps most important was that I ran the three locos separated but within close reach of each other when the locos were "cold" and again when they had been run for some time.  There was no noticeable difference--and they all run at close to the same speed.  I'm reluctantly concluding that I need to shorten the consist--that these locos just don't have the pulling power of some of my other locos.
 Although I'm putting the topic to rest, I still can't figure out why they pull well when they are cold and pulling power diminishes as they heat up.

Thank you to all for your responses and suggestions.

carmelmodelrr

Well, it sounds like you did your research.

Hopefully, even trying to troubleshoot was a learning experience.

[Dave V]

I can't help but think the trackwork on which these engines are run makes a huge difference. Bob mentioned N-Trak joints, and while I don't participate in it I don't recall having seen to many stalling issues on bing N-Trak displays. I do recall seeing plenty of train separations and derailments, LOL.

But for home layouts, I really think track is one of those difficult-to-control variables (insofar as it varies considerably from one layout to the next). Are there dead spots? Dirty track? Unpowered frogs? I think a real test would have to involve locomotives across the spectrum of manufacturers in both scales in similar conditions, say a loop of Unitrack in each scale that's being cleaned regularly and has lots of feeder wires.

It's really just academic though. How well our stuff runs depends largely upon our willingness to maintain it and how rigorous we are with trackwork and wiring. I've never owned anything that runs as well as my Blackstone stuff, but I also run track-cleaning cars in consist, solder almost every joint, check the gauge, drop tons of feeders, and power all my frogs. I can my Blackstone run sh!tty too by dropping it on someone else's layout where the track isn't up to the same snuff. That has little to do with gauge.