Question on dirt accumulation in Kato N scale RS-2/RSC-2

[brokemoto]

Many here know that more than once have I posted about the ten greatest ogres to all things N scale.  Eight of those are dirt and at the end, frequently I add "Did I remember to mention 'dirt'?".

When a reliable locomotive starts to sputter and stutter, the first suspected culprit is dirt; but on the track.  When a thorough track erasing/LL Track Cleaning does not solve the problem the next suspect is the locomotive.  The first things for which I look are dirt devils in the trucks.  This problem is more common on live trucks with contact wipers, but it does happen on needlepoint as well.  If the dirt devils are not the culprits, it is time to disassamble the locomotive.

One thing that I have noticed that occurs frequently is that crud will accumulate in the indentations for the needlepoint axles on the bronze contact strips that are in the trucks.  A quick swabbing with LL Track Cleaner on a Q-tip then an outscraping of the dirt cleans up the mess.  I then re-swab with the q-tip, put back the truck, track erase the nub on top of the contact strip as well as the bottom of  long  contact strips on the chassis.  This addresses the problem.  The things run fine after that.

Has anyone else had this problem with these locomotives?

Is there anything that you can do to prevent this from occurring so frequently.  I am afraid that the plastic nuts on the metal chassis and the clips on the trucks will become fatigued from so much disassembly and reassembly, thus ineffective, which will render the locomotive useless.

Thank you in advance.

[trainforfun]

Hi
I found that DCC bring dirt faster than plain DC . My N scale lighted cars flicker less in my Christmas tree trains after a couple of hours of operation on DC .
I have installed a ring of KATO double tracks on a plywood ring suspended in the middle of the tree .

The other thing that bring a lot of dirt is when you cut wood in your train room , fine saw dust is terrible on track , I found that my trains acted very erratic ( not errotic ) after a couple of cut specially with a skill saw .
But all that I bet you knew and it will not help rapidly to solve your problem ...

[thomasjmdavis]

Many here know that more than once have I posted about the ten greatest ogres to all things N scale.  Eight of those are dirt and at the end, frequently I add "Did I remember to mention 'dirt'?".

When a reliable locomotive starts to sputter and stutter, the first suspected culprit is dirt; but on the track.  When a thorough track erasing/LL Track Cleaning does not solve the problem the next suspect is the locomotive.  The first things for which I look are dirt devils in the trucks.  This problem is more common on live trucks with contact wipers, but it does happen on needlepoint as well.  If the dirt devils are not the culprits, it is time to disassamble the locomotive.

One thing that I have noticed that occurs frequently is that crud will accumulate in the indentations for the needlepoint axles on the bronze contact strips that are in the trucks.  A quick swabbing with LL Track Cleaner on a Q-tip then an outscraping of the dirt cleans up the mess.  I then re-swab with the q-tip, put back the truck, track erase the nub on top of the contact strip as well as the bottom of  long  contact strips on the chassis.  This addresses the problem.  The things run fine after that.

Has anyone else had this problem with these locomotives?

Is there anything that you can do to prevent this from occurring so frequently.  I am afraid that the plastic nuts on the metal chassis and the clips on the trucks will become fatigued from so much disassembly and reassembly, thus ineffective, which will render the locomotive useless.

Thank you in advance.

Could you be a bit more specific- for example, how frequently is frequently?  Are you doing these cleanings monthly, weekly, daily?  Also, how often do you need to clean other locos in your fleet? And is this one loco, or do you have a fleet of them all exhibiting the same issue?

The couple things (although not necessarily Kato specific) I note in my own loco maintenance that occasionally cause dirt related issues-
1) I sometimes "over-lube" locos after cleaning- leading to dirt mixing with the excess lube to cause a worse problem than I had pre-cleaning.
2) If I run into a loco that is needing more cleaning than others, I take a look at the condition of the gears and other plastic parts in the trucks and mechanism- sometimes I find the excess "dirt" is ground plastic resulting from some parts that are not properly aligned and grinding each other down.

[randgust]

I don't really understand magic sauce, but I believe in it.

It's called Atlas Conductalube.   It has worked wonders on my light Climax A's that live and die on pickup, and makes a NOTICEABLE improvement and a long-term benefit as well.   It has a precision needlepoint dropper so that you can get a drop into end-axle pickups, I do it as SOP now, without removing the trucks or disassembling them.

The science is there though; you're putting electricity across a space, higher voltage = arcing across any gap, the spark can create carbon, which builds up everywhere as a partial insulator, on railheads it mixes with lubricants and dust to create gunk.  It's not just oxidation, it's also carbon sparking.   I think, but don't know, that Conductalube keeps the surfaces from arcing at the air gap as much.    Lighter locomotives will have more problems than heavy ones (I've never had to do this to my Kato F's, just my lighter-contact units and the little 11-105 chassis are the worst.

We have an HO display layout in our office window, and I've had plenty of 'science' to prove that running them SLOWER (even under DC) creates less problems with wheel tread arcing and dirt than FASTER, and the sweet spot is fast enough not to stall and keep the rails polished at the LOWEST voltage on the rails.  When it's a display layout running a couple hours a day with nickel-silver rails, the track only gets dirty through carbonizing.

I also think this is the reason that you see harder (and more slippery) wheel materials on some newer DCC locomotives - to keep the wheel carbon under control, at the expense of gripping/tractive effort.   Worn-out brass wheels grab way better, but carbon up faster at higher voltages.

[Chris333]

I think Conductalube is just dielectric grease.

[mmagliaro]

I have had steam locos with those tender cone cups accumulate black crud inside the cups, killing the pickup.  I usually use a toothpick soaked in alcohol to scrap out the junk first, especially down deep at the point of the cup.  Then a small stiff paint brush, soaked in alcohol and twirled into the cup, gets rid of the rest.  I avoid putting anything sharp or metal in the cup.  It needs to remain as smooth and scratch-free as possible to avoid friction and dirt accumulation.

I've seen this on Kato Mikados, Bachmann 2-8-0's, and other engines I can't recall at the moment.
Your higher voltage theory (more arcing, more carbon build up, at high voltages) might have some merit.  I have noticed this to be more of problem on my NP W-5, which is super-geared-down, so I tend to run it more in the 10 volt and up range.

[thomasjmdavis]

I think Conductalube is just dielectric grease.

It is a light oil, rather than grease (check the tiny needle applicator in the photo at Walthers (link below).  My thought is that it might be more similar  to (maybe lighter?) Wahl hair clipper oil. I've never used the clipper oil as a lube, but have read about others using it to lube wheels and such. But is does do wonders on my beard trimmer.  I did try it as a track cleaner, and it worked, but I wasn't happy with the traction after (oil is still oil, conductive or not)

https://www.walthers.com/atlas-conducta-lube-cleaner

[peteski]

I think Conductalube is just dielectric grease.

Name is misleading. Yes, is non-conductive.  Just like other brands of hobby lubricants.

You will notice that nowhere in the description (other than the word "Conducta" in the nsme) is anything mentioned about it being conductive.

[Chris333]

I have actual silver bearing grease that is conductive. It came in a syringe the size of an ink pen.

https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/grease-for-electronics/electrically-conductive-grease/contact-grease/

[peteski]

I have actual silver bearing grease that is conductive. It came in a syringe the size of an ink pen.

https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/grease-for-electronics/electrically-conductive-grease/contact-grease/

That stuff is a bit pricier than Atlas Conducta-lube.   

Have you done any sort of scientific comparison testing as to the difference it makes for electric pickup compared to standard non-conductive lubes?  I suspect that in our model train application it does not make enough difference to justify its higher cost.

[mmagliaro]

Ya know... even though that little syringe of silver-filled grease costs about 40 bucks (50 at some places),
it does make me wonder if it would help with my tiny "Rocket" project.  I have phosphor bronze wires spring-loaded against the bearing blocks on the engine, and tender uses traditional axle-point-in-cup pickups.  But getting more perfect contact on all of those points, so that at any moment in time, as many of them are actually working as possible, could be a big deal in such a light engine where there won't be enough weight to do it alone.  But $40... ouch.

[Teditor]

I can obtain it locally in Australia from one place only, $81.00 Aust + Postage.

Ted (Teditor) Freeman
SP in the Land Down Under

[Chris333]

I bought it a long time ago so I doubt I paid that much. I just put it in Kato tender trucks. I did wear a lab coat if that makes it scientific. 

I don't have the Atlas stuff to compare. 

I recall way back when I bought the silver bearing stuff there was a video showing a guy touching a meter to it to show it conducted. Similar to this:

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I have a big tube of dielectric grease out in the garage that I used on my landscape lights. It is just a grease to stop oxidation.

[peteski]

I bought it a long time ago so I doubt I paid that much. I just put it in Kato tender trucks. I did wear a lab coat if that makes it scientific. 

I don't have the Atlas stuff to compare, but I recall way back when I bought the stuff there was a video showing a guy touching a meter to it to show it conducted. Similar to this:

I have a big tube of dielectric grease out in the garage that I used on my landscape lights. It is just a grease to stop oxidation.

Are you stating that Atlas Conducta-Lube is conductive, or that it is dielectric (non-conductive)?
I don't dispute that your MG Chemicals conductive grease is in fact conductive.

Conductive lubricants are either silver or dark gray in color (since they contain the conductive metal or carbon particles.  Dielectric lubes (like the Atlas Conducta Lube) are often transparent (no conductive particles in them).

[Chris333]

Are you stating that Atlas Conducta-Lube is conductive, or that it is dielectric (non-conductive)?
I don't dispute that your MG Chemicals conductive grease is in fact conductive.

Conductive lubricants are either solver or dark gray in color (since they contain the conductive metal or carbon particles.  Dielectric lubes (like the Atlas Conducta Lube) are often transparent (no conductive particles in them).

Oops sorry I worded that wrong. I meant the silver grease when I was talking about the video.