New Kato motor

[peteski]

Thanks Kelley!  That swizzle stick ideal is simple and clever.

[RAILCAT]

  Kelley, how do you program the same ESU sound file on multiple locos?
  Is it one at a time or do you have a trick?

  When I do one it takes ages on LokProgammer.

[nightmare0331]

  Kelley, how do you program the same ESU sound file on multiple locos?
  Is it one at a time or do you have a trick?

  When I do one it takes ages on LokProgammer.

Two ways....

1.  I have an ESU production server gang programmer.  If it's on their production server, I can load up to 8 decoders with the same file at a time (mine has issues and can only do 4 at a time).  This really only works with OEM files as most retail files arn't on there.  I usually end up having to rewrite the decoder data on a lokprogrammer once these are installed as changes get made anyways.  (granted, once set up, that only takes like 30 seconds).

2.  Alligator clips to a lokprogrammer.  I'm constantly loading decoders, hitting start and walking away.  Since something like the GS4 sound file isn't on the production server, I just use this approach.

There is no magical approach to make these things program faster.  The trick is just to hit write file and walk away and go do something else.  (not difficult for me....I'm usually working on 12 things at once).

Number 1 is a moot point to most people as they're generally not burning through thousands of decoders and it would have limited utility for one.  Outside of an OEM or production type setting they're not available anyways.

So...alligator clip leads to your lokprogammer.  You only need track input (red, black) to physically program a decoder.  To test it is obviously another story.

Enjoy!

Kelley.

[RAILCAT]

Kelley, Thanks for the insight.

[Mark5]

but some people seem to be hung up on the "3-pole" thing.

I spent a fair chunk of my childhood watching trains start at one of the largest coal classification yards in the world (Williamson, WV), so my expectations are probably a little higher than average.

You show me a motor that can start my train slowly and smoothly - I'll buy it!

(if the 3-pole motor is so great, why is Kato wasting time and money developing a new motor?  )

Mark

[peteski]

You show me a motor that can start my train slowly and smoothly - I'll buy it!

In my experience, with the PWM and BEMF motor drive of any DCC decoder (or even in DC with a good quality pulse throttle) you can have any motor (3-, 4-, 5-, 6-, or even 20-pole    ) start smoothly, and run at very low rpms.   Really. 

(if the 3-pole motor is so great, why is Kato wasting time and money developing a new motor?  )

Easy, because they are innovators, and always striving to invent a better mouse trap.  Just look at the evolution of their mechanisms.

It has nothing to do with how many poles motor has.  IIRC, since their entry into N scale Kato used variations of straight-wound 5 pole motors. Modelers complained that it should be skew-wound, but that motor performs well, even being straight-wound.

Then they produced that small highly skewed 3-pole motor with very strong rare earth magnets.  That 3-pole motor is rather new in the Kato motor evolution timeline.  They probably produced that motor because they needed a smaller motor. But that doesn't mean they made step backwards. It was just a sideways move. That motor is still of "Kato quality".  If the new slotless Kato motor only has 3 windings, will you automatically turn your nose at it?

[Mark5]

In my experience, with the PWM and BEMF motor drive of any DCC decoder (or even in DC with a good quality pulse throttle) you can have any motor (3-, 4-, 5-, 6-, or even 20-pole    ) start smoothly, and run at very low rpms.   Really. 

So we're back around the block again.    Too bad we can't meet in person to discuss this. For now we have to (again) agree to disagree. It may simply be that what you consider acceptable is unacceptable to me. Cheers!

(I don't appreciate being ridiculed though. Really. )

If the new slotless Kato motor only has 3 windings, will you automatically turn your nose at it?

Probably  But honestly - no. Not until I have witnessed first hand the performance (actual experience drives my opinion here).

Mark

[peteski]

(I don't appreciate being ridiculed though. Really. )

Sorry if that's how it came out.
No names were mentioned, and you are far from being the only person automatically dismissing 3-pole motors.  Yes, I too would welcome discussing this in-person,  including some hands-on demonstrations.

Would it be possible for you to mention some specific loco (or locos) that has a 3-pole motor which soured you to 3-pole motors?  If I own those models, I would like to see if I can also notice their inferiority.  By the same token, which 5-pole equipped locos provide acceptable performance?  Are you running DC or DCC? What brand throttle (DC) or brand of decoders (DCC) Give me some specifics.  I like to see what you see.

[Mark5]

Sorry if that's how it came out.

Accepted. 

Would it be possible for you to mention some specific loco (or locos) that has a 3-pole motor which soured you to 3-pole motors? 

Short answer: all of 'em!. We've been around the block on that topic over the years as well, so no. 

I am slowly (and I do mean sloooooooooowly) coverting to DCC (I have a NCC Power Cab).

My philosophy on adding DCC to any model is to first make sure that the model performs well in DC (I have a 21st century MRC Tech zillion). That way, I know that if the model runs "funny" after installing DCC - I can at least rule out any problems with the mechanism.

As I already mentioned (many many times), I am ultra picky about slow speed performance - it just destroys the illusion for me.

It is possible that the GS-4 I witnessed was a "bad apple", so I am actually considering putting my money where my mouth is and picking up one of the new run GS-4s to see if it also fails my test (I really do like the proto very much!). Even if I am unhappy with the newest 3 banger, I would still have the prospect of "dropping in" the forthcoming "superior" motor. 

Mark

[JeffB]

My philosophy on adding DCC to any model is to first make sure that the model performs well in DC (I have a 21st century MRC Tech zillion). That way, I know that if the model runs "funny" after installing DCC - I can at least rule out any problems with the mechanism.

As I already mentioned (many many times), I am ultra picky about slow speed performance - it just destroys the illusion for me.

Mark

I completely agree with you...  I test all the mechanisms I custom build on DC first.  If it doesn't run flawlessly, I tweak or rebuild it until it does.  Only then will I put a DCC decoder on it. 

DCC is not a cure-all...  But really good running mechanisms run better on DCC (with the right decoder at least).

I'm with you on being ultra-picky with slow speed performance.  Most commercial "steam" mechanisms fall short. 

On motors...  Coreless or five-pole iron core are all I'll bother with (and they have to be good quality iron core motors).  But that doesn't mean that a 3 pole motor won't run well.  If Kato is making a three pole, there's got to be something good about it.

Jeff

[peteski]

Short answer: all of 'em!. We've been around the block on that topic over the years as well, so no. 

Well, the thing is that there aren't many locos produced in the last 20 (or even 30) years that use 3-pole motors.  Maybe some Bachmann "white box" locos still used those, but those had terrible mechanisms, so the poor running could not be contributed to the motor.  Of course the early N scale stuff from the '70s had 3-pole motors, but the mechanisms were last rather rough.

Maybe I should have asked you which locos with 5-pole motors perform acceptably to you. Again, it is not just the motor -- the mechanism design plays a major role in slow speed performance.  Since you didn't give me any specific examples, could you provide some specific examples of the locos you find acceptable?

I am slowly (and I do mean sloooooooooowly) coverting to DCC (I have a NCC Power Cab).

My philosophy on adding DCC to any model is to first make sure that the model performs well in DC (I have a 21st century MRC Tech zillion). That way, I know that if the model runs "funny" after installing DCC - I can at least rule out any problems with the mechanism.

So that MRC Tech zillion gives you acceptable starts and slow speed with the 5-pole equipped locos?  Could you mention the specific model number of your throttle (There is no MRC Tech zillion throttle).

I agree 100% that the model should perform as well as possible in DC, so it will run just as well, or better with a quality decoder installed.  But sometimes you just want some loco that due to its design is not quite as good in DC as you would like, and not much can be done mechanically to improve it.  The PWM motor driver in the decoder will likely improve its slow speed running quality.

It is possible that the GS-4 I witnessed was a "bad apple", so I am actually considering putting my money where my mouth is and picking up one of the new run GS-4s to see if it also fails my test (I really do like the proto very much!). Even if I am unhappy with the newest 3 banger, I would still have the prospect of "dropping in" the forthcoming "superior" motor. 

I do hope that you do pick one of those up and have a go at it.

Another thing I want to mention is that the number of poles is just a part of what contributes to the motor's overall perormance.  JUst as important are other parts of motor's design.


Case in point, the old Life-Like/Mehano 5-pole motor.  Tes, it is a 5-pole motor, but it has very weak magnet mounted at the end of the motor, with iron plates as the motor's magnetic poles.  It also has a fairly large air gap between the poles and armature.  Die to all that, even with 5-poles, the motor sucks!  It has almost no torque (read: poor low speed performance), and because of that low torque, it needed rather high voltage to get the loco running at a satisfactory speed.  The armature was also wound with very thin wire (high resistance).  All those factors woudl contribute to it running hot, and is sometimes literally burn up (the windings fried).

The crappy motor in the above photo has been modified by me,  It was in a loco I donated to Lee and his retro layout.  The  only thing I did was to remove the weak magnets and replace them with more modern very strong rare earth magnets.  The stronger magnetic field (even with the large gap at the armature) had noticeably improved its torque (and overall running quality).  Still nowhere as good as any modern motors, but better than the original.

As you can see, the number of poles is just a small factor determining the quality of a motor.

[Mark5]

Well, the thing is that there aren't many locos produced in the last 20 (or even 30) years that use 3-pole motors.

Thank God! 

Maybe I should have asked you which locos with 5-pole motors perform acceptably to you.

I have roughly 75 locos, not going there.  (I gotta go to work)

Again, it is not just the motor -- the mechanism design plays a major role in slow speed performance. 

No kidding!

So that MRC Tech zillion gives you acceptable starts and slow speed with the 5-pole equipped locos?  Could you mention the specific model number of your throttle (There is no MRC Tech zillion throttle).

Yeah, I'm at home now - Tech 220. 

I agree 100% that the model should perform as well as possible in DC, so it will run just as well, or better with a quality decoder installed.

We probably agree on many things! 

<snip> old Life-Like/Mehano 5-pole motor.  Tes, it is a 5-pole motor, but it has very weak magnet mounted at the end of the motor, with iron plates as the motor's magnetic poles.  It also has a fairly large air gap between the poles and armature.  Die to all that, even with 5-poles, the motor sucks!  It has almost no torque (read: poor low speed performance), and because of that low torque, it needed rather high voltage to get the loco running at a satisfactory speed. 

While I agree that the Mehano motors were junk, I found them to give decent low speed performance. Here is a video of a MRC RSD15 mechanism that I stretched out over 40 years for a C630 project (that I never finished):

Note that this has been sitting in my junk box for decades and the "idler" wheels are dragging. 

Off to work I go!

Mark

[peteski]

While I agree that the Mehano motors were junk, I found them to give decent low speed performance. Here is a video of a MRC RSD15 mechanism that I stretched out over 40 years for a C630 project (that I never finished):

Note that this has been sitting in my junk box for decades and the "idler" wheels are dragging. 

Off to work I go!

Mark

That is pretty good Mark,  I assume that it is running using pulse DC power from your throttle  ( IMO it would be impossible to get that crappy motor to run that slow with pure DC).   BTW, most (if not all) 3-pole motors can be made to run that slowly using pulse DC throttle, or a DCC decoder with a PWM motor drive.  Of course the rest of the mechanism cannot have any hitches.

And I see that you again danced around the subject instead of giving me some specifics on the 5-pole motor models which give you acceptable results.  Even with hundreds of locos, could you give me one or 2 specific examples?  And are those models unmodified, or you have done some tuning of the mechanism?

[SkipGear]

Late to the fire....I had some fun arguments with Victor over 3 pole / 5 pole back in the day of the Atlas forums.

I for one am not totally against 3 pole motors if designed properly with a skewed armature...that said, the GS4 3 pole motor sucks. I have had to replace 4 of them so far in club members loco's, all due to one pole failing. I fought with my GS4 for a year, replacing decoders and and everything else before I realized it was a bad segment on the armature, and I should have known better. I just refused to believe it was the motor. After figuring mine out, I started seeing them fail in our Ntrak club. My GS4 is now on it's 3rd motor, the one I just took out had a magnet come apart. The armature is fine, the magnet got the equivalent of zamacitis and started swelling and eventually rubbed the armature. I wish I had another option for the loco.

[peteski]

Late to the fire....I had some fun arguments with Victor over 3 pole / 5 pole back in the day of the Atlas forums.

I for one am not totally against 3 pole motors if designed properly with a skewed armature...that said, the GS4 3 pole motor sucks. I have had to replace 4 of them so far in club members loco's, all due to one pole failing.

So we are back to square one.  The Kato's 3-pole motor's performance (slow speed or otherwise) is not problematic at all -- the problem is mechanical or electric failures.

I had a Kato 5-pole motor with the same exact problem.  Kato just crimps the wire into the commutator tab to make electrical connection. No solder. Well, they solder on the ceramic ring after the wires are crimped. The crimping force breaks through the enamel on the wire, creating electrical connection.  In my example, that connection failed.  Just to see if I can fix it, I took the motor apart, gently scraped the enamel from the wire a and soldered it to  the commutator tab. Arrow shows the extra solder.  That fixed the motor.