Autonomous Trains

[Maletrain]

I am also wondering about security.  If somebody in a railroad office can run a train by radio, why can't some terrorist run that train by remote control?  With all the hacking, some implemented by "insiders" placed inside specifically for that purpose, I don't see how trains could be made immune to such things.  And big trains with lots of hazardous cargos seem like attractive targets for people trying to do great harm.

[Lenny53]

Will be finding out in Montreal starting next year.

https://rem.info/en/reseau-express-metropolitain

[nkalanaga]

Science fiction writer Sir Arthur Clarke, in the mid 70s, predicted that we'd have self-driving cars - in the 2200s.  And only on major highways.  They'd still be under manual control on secondary roads and in urban areas.

The "self-driving" part isn't the problem.  It's everything else that the car can't control.  The biggest issue facing autonomous vehicles on public streets is avoiding humans.  They HAVE to be programmed not to hit a human - period.  So what's to keep the humans from standing on the curb, until a car comes along, then stepping out just to watch it stop?  Not only would the car never make any progress, but the computer would probably have a nervous breakdown.  And there's no law, or any practical way to enforce one, against teasing a computer.

[pedro]

I've weighed in on this before, but I'll say it again: Our freight trains are already capable of running themselves, and quite well. Any train, any length, any configuration, any territory. I see it hands-on every day. I have a 300 mile run across sawtooth profile, 1% grades, speed-restricted curves. GE's "Trip Optimizer" can run it. I'm REQUIRED to let it run the train, when it's working. There will be advancements in software and hardware, and it will keep getting better. Give it full control of the air brakes and it will be all but over...It's just a matter of time.

Call me pessimistic about the future of the profession.

[CBQ Fan]

One thought about commercial trains, planes and trucks.  Remove the engineer, pilot & driver and in the event of an incident you can immediately remove the liability to blame operator error. No way to shift blame or hang an employee out to dry. 

[dem34]

Science fiction writer Sir Arthur Clarke, in the mid 70s, predicted that we'd have self-driving cars - in the 2200s.  And only on major highways.  They'd still be under manual control on secondary roads and in urban areas.

The "self-driving" part isn't the problem.  It's everything else that the car can't control.  The biggest issue facing autonomous vehicles on public streets is avoiding humans.  They HAVE to be programmed not to hit a human - period.  So what's to keep the humans from standing on the curb, until a car comes along, then stepping out just to watch it stop?  Not only would the car never make any progress, but the computer would probably have a nervous breakdown.  And there's no law, or any practical way to enforce one, against teasing a computer.

Obstructing traffic.
They'd have cameras, and I imagine somebody would notice after a few minutes that the car wasn't moving and take a glance. From there it would be the same as dealing with the usual roadside crackhead making snow angels in the turning lane.

[Missaberoad]

I've weighed in on this before, but I'll say it again: Our freight trains are already capable of running themselves, and quite well. Any train, any length, any configuration, any territory. I see it hands-on every day. I have a 300 mile run across sawtooth profile, 1% grades, speed-restricted curves. GE's "Trip Optimizer" can run it. I'm REQUIRED to let it run the train, when it's working. There will be advancements in software and hardware, and it will keep getting better. Give it full control of the air brakes and it will be all but over...It's just a matter of time.

Call me pessimistic about the future of the profession.

Agreed,

Our FTO is already implementing a rudimentary control of the airbrakes, still manual control but it prompts when to apply.
I'm sure I'll see fully automated trains in my career, but its definitely a ways off before its completely autonomous.

FTO still won't take 20,000+ ton trains down 2% grades and there isn't any automation yet that can handle unprotected grade crossings every ~5000ft at 50+mph.

My issue isn't that it isn't possible or isn't going to happen, not arguing that. I just think its more complicated then people think.

[Maletrain]

Science fiction writer Sir Arthur Clarke, in the mid 70s, predicted that we'd have self-driving cars - in the 2200s.  And only on major highways.  They'd still be under manual control on secondary roads and in urban areas.

The "self-driving" part isn't the problem.  It's everything else that the car can't control.  The biggest issue facing autonomous vehicles on public streets is avoiding humans.  They HAVE to be programmed not to hit a human - period.  So what's to keep the humans from standing on the curb, until a car comes along, then stepping out just to watch it stop?  Not only would the car never make any progress, but the computer would probably have a nervous breakdown.  And there's no law, or any practical way to enforce one, against teasing a computer.

The problem with the computer having to be programmed to not hit a human is that it is the carjacker's dream to be able to step in front of a car, point a gun at the person inside and NOT GET RUN DOWN. 

You can bet that any automatic driving system is going to be exploited at many levels, from the carjackers to the computer hackers.  And, if I was a Chinese official with control over how those chips were being made for export to the U.S. and I was concerned about the U.S. military, I would be sure to make a back door in those chips that allowed somebody in Beijing to push a button that would make every car in the U.S. immediately make a hard left turn.  That would probably kill more people than WWII without firing a single ICBM.

[nkalanaga]

-Al:  Yes, you could get them for obstructing traffic, but that falls under "practical".  Given the nature of human beings, are there enough jail cells to hold all of them?  Or enough police to arrest all of them?

Ryan:  I agree - MUCH more complicated than most people think.  And it still doesn't answer the mechanical problems.  That was one of BNSF's points.  Considering some of the places they run, what happens if something breaks?  It could take hours to get a maintainer to the site, and in the meantime the entire railroad is shut down.  There are some places that only a hi-rail or helicopter, or someone on foot, could get to.

[dem34]

I mean this is the argument I see all the time. "But what stops me from just taking it/robbing it/etc." And my response is always the same, does it realistically change what was happening with humans instead? I doubt there will be a sudden uptick in desperate junkies committing massive felonies because its no longer a person at the wheel.
Add on to the fact that I see it in my job semi frequently, people steal smart security equipment/rob robo couriers. But it seems they get caught way more easily because surprisingly, the thing covered in cameras constantly updating to the cloud, with a gps tracker is able to both ID exactly who stole, and if they took the whole thing, the second they plug it in it broadcasts their location for all to see.

That was an awkward meeting at my co-workers firing.

[peteski]

I mean this is the argument I see all the time. "But what stops me from just taking it/robbing it/etc." And my response is always the same, does it realistically change what was happening with humans instead? I doubt there will be a sudden uptick in desperate junkies committing massive felonies because its no longer a person at the wheel.
Add on to the fact that I see it in my job semi frequently, people steal smart security equipment/rob robo couriers. But it seems they get caught way more easily because surprisingly, the thing covered in cameras constantly updating to the cloud, with a gps tracker is able to both ID exactly who stole, and if they took the whole thing, the second they plug it in it broadcasts their location for all to see.

That was an awkward meeting at my co-workers firing.

As I see it, you are missing the point.  It is not about stealing goods.  It is about hackers (private or state-sponsored) invading the system and causing damage and death.  This is the new warfare in the 21st Century. No need to send military forces and equipment to the battlefield. The Internet is the new battlefield.  Just recently USA experienced such actions (the oil pipeline was out of commission for some time).  The more the country's infrastructure is automated (read "online"), the more of this remote warfare will will be seeing.  Self-driving cars and trains will likely also become targets when they are introduced into our lives.

[learmoia]

I agree with Peteski... Like a ransomware attack.. encrypt the system and demand 1 billion to unlock it... and don't attack the railroad, attack the 3rd party vendor who provides the technology to multiple railroads, and shut down the entire rail network..

The problem with the computer having to be programmed to not hit a human is that it is the carjacker's dream to be able to step in front of a car, point a gun at the person inside and NOT GET RUN DOWN. 

Umm.. that guy is going to get run over if there is an engineer in the cab or not...

The train does't need to 'look down the tracks' and predict to stop, it just needs to blow the horn..  If it thinks it hit something, then it needs to stop..  (areas prone to rock slides, mud slides, are special situations.. )

Crossings shouldn't be an issue, you just need to teach it to read whistle posts and put up signs.. or hell, just do it with GPS.

[nickelplate759]

... Just recently USA experienced such actions (the oil pipeline was out of commission for some time)...

That mess was somewhat misprepresented.  The pipeline itself was NOT affected.   The company's financial systems were by hithackers/ransomware, and that caused the company to shut them down, and that meant that they couldn't bill customers for transport.  So -- they shutdown the pipeline rather than miss out on revenue. 

[pedro]

The train does't need to 'look down the tracks' and predict to stop, it just needs to blow the horn..  If it thinks it hit something, then it needs to stop..  (areas prone to rock slides, mud slides, are special situations.. )

Crossings shouldn't be an issue, you just need to teach it to read whistle posts and put up signs.. or hell, just do it with GPS.

The PTC already blows the horn for crossings, but we’re not allowed to let it. (And it’s incredibly obnoxious)  We can let it start, but we have to finish the sequence. It automatically adjusts when it starts the crossing sequence based on your speed.

Look, the railroad is WAY ahead of all of us on the technology. What we’re doing now is the tip of the iceberg; updates are rolled out incrementally with new features and functionality added each time. The entire physical plant is already mapped in 3D. Every crossing, no matter how insignificant. Every nuance of grade and curvature. Inward-facing cameras capable of live look-in and can see every corner of the cab. Forward-looking cameras and external mics that can pick up conversations between the engineer and someone standing on the ground. Cameras EVERYWHERE on the property. The dispatcher can pan and zoom, as can local managers.

Lawyers and regulators will hash out the liability issues. Four-quadrant gates, crossing closures, grade separation, fencing. You already can’t avoid hitting something, what difference does it make if no one’s in the cab? Someone monitoring the system can look at the camera footage and see what was hit and stop the train if necessary.

Complete mechanical breakdowns are rare. Sure, they happen, but more often than not the train can keep moving with power from the other units. We already have “rapid responders” who are mechanical department personnel staged with vehicles at strategic locations in case a train has problems. Quite often we are able to bring the train to them for assistance. If not, they can be on site usually within an hour or two.

There’s no avoiding it… every excuse you can think of for why it can’t be done is, or will be dealt with in due time!

It sounds like I’m a shill for the company or a fan of automation. I am not; I’m just a realist! The whole thing makes me sick.

[peteski]

That mess was somewhat misprepresented.  The pipeline itself was NOT affected.   The company's financial systems were by hithackers/ransomware, and that caused the company to shut them down, and that meant that they couldn't bill customers for transport.  So -- they shutdown the pipeline rather than miss out on revenue.

Sure, but the point is that it *WAS* shut down causing problems.  Cyberattacks (as the media has them aptly named) have been occurring for as long as companies (and government) have been connected to the Internet, and will continue to happen (causing more and more problems).  We don't even really know how many of those incidents already go unreported.

It is one thing for some kid (or adult) hacker messing with a baby monitor camera, or a smart light bulb or thermostat, but once unfriendly governments or large terrorist organizations find back doors to things like power plants (or in the future self-driving car or railroad networks) then we will have lots  of problems to deal with.