car usage question - early 1970s

[nkalanaga]

I model the BN in western Montana, 1974.  I also have three PRR (PC by now) hoppers, obviously a long way from home.  Is there anything made, or mined, in Penn Central territory that would have been shipped to western Montana?

Coal is unlikely, as even back then Montana had coal mines.  And they have lots of limestone, so that's out.

[Missaberoad]

Slightly outside your era but at least one made it to California.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2489237

They commonly made it out to Wisconsin and Minnesota hauling coal, but I imagine the farther west you get the rarer eastern hoppers would get.

[nkalanaga]

If they were going to CA in 1980, they probably were in 1974.  Thank you!

On the other hand, I don't think CA has any coal mines, so it would make sense for them to buy eastern coal.  There's coal closer, but if they want a particular kind, that might be harder to get.

Montana's coal use was probably entirely steam coal, and they have plenty of that.  As far as I know, they had no steel mills, so wouldn't need metallurgical coal.  The aluminum plants used graphite electrodes, made from coke, but the ones in Washington seem to have used petroleum coke, rather than coal coke.

In the days of steam locos, the GN bought eastern coal for their Lines East, which included MN and WI, but most of the western locos burned oil, partly to reduce sparks, and wildfires.  Unlike the NP, the GN seldom burned on-line coal, as it wasn't the best for locomotive use.

It looks like these hoppers will stay in storage for a while longer!

[sd45elect2000]

How bout metallurgical coke and coal to Rocky mountain steel in Pueblo?

[Tristan Ashcroft]

If anybody anywhere wanted anthracite, by the 1970s, it only came from Pennsylvania.  And remember just how loose loose car railroading was, even into the 80's.  3 PRR hoppers anywhere in the 1970s would surely be legit.

[Mark5]

FWIW, I have a copy of a photo from 1978 of an N&W coal car in St Paul MN (@ Koppers).

I know some N&W coal was shipped out west, but at the moment can't remember the particulars.

Mark

[Mark5]

Coal is unlikely, as even back then Montana had coal mines. 

Western coal (for the most part) is a lower quality coal than what you'd normally see from the eastern coal seams. So there was still (as pointed out above) probably a market for higher quality coal.

[Missaberoad]

Pre Powder River There was lots of eastern bituminous used in the northwest, but the majority of it was back hauled to Lake Superior ports in empty ore boats, so eastern hoppers wouldn't enter into it.

There is also an imaginary line at some point where it's cheaper to get high quality coal from Colorado/Utah or Alberta then it would be to ship eastern coal from Duluth/Superior. You would need waybills or train consists to figure out where that is.

If anybody anywhere wanted anthracite, by the 1970s, it only came from Pennsylvania.  And remember just how loose loose car railroading was, even into the 80's.  3 PRR hoppers anywhere in the 1970s would surely be legit.

This! By '74 Anthracite wouldn't be used in home heating anymore, but it was still used in carload lots by Municipalities for water filtration among other industrial uses. It was never shipped in large enough quantities to make backhaul by lake boat viable. So this is probably your best bet...
We still get the occasional car of Anthracite here in Alberta (in those awesome Reading and Northern Hoppers) so long haul for it is still a thing even in 2021...

FWIW, I have a copy of a photo from 1978 of an N&W coal car in St Paul MN (@ Koppers).
Mark

Koppers was always grabbing whatever cars they could find to load coke into. Likely they came to Minnesota, or Wisconsin with a load of coal for an industrial user and were captured as an empty. As a rule it should be a load heading  back towards home territory, but this rule was broken time.to time. Rule 1 is get the car for the load.

N&W cars definitely made it out west, but as with any eastern coal car it was more of an exception not a rule...

[nkalanaga]

A load of anthracite would be possible, at least "passing through".  None of my towns are big enough for a fancy water treatment plant, so it wouldn't be a "delivered" car.  And as shiny as the Atlas coal loads are, they probably look like anthracite.  Two of the cars are Atlas "90-ton" hoppers.

On the good side, I don't intend to run all three together, so one car would be quite plausible.  Might even be able to route it to my online coal mines, as an empty headed back east.  Most of my coal goes to Great Falls, so that would be "east" of the layout.

Coal and coke to Pueblo would be very possible, but wouldn't go through Montana.

By the 1970s there wasn't much coal used in the Northwest, as the region had hydro power early, and Montana had both oil and natural gas.  What was used tended to be local.  Washington has some good coal, and not all of Montana's is the Powder River/Rosebud subbituminous. 

[CBQ Fan]

What about a dispatcher error and they were missed shipped out west!?! 

[sirenwerks]

Rather than coal, how about steel-making additives coming from PC territory in OH, headed for Geneva in UT?

[nkalanaga]

Possible, although that would probably go UP.  If the shipping/purchasing department was run by idiots, it could go BN to Butte, then down the UP from there.  That would likely miss my line, but it would be possible.

I don't remember ever seeing an eastern hopper in Pasco in the 1970s.  There were very few BN, or predecessor, hoppers, except for the ancient 2-bay cars used for sugar beets.

[wm3798]

I've got one of those shiny silver CB&Q Atlas 90 tonners... I'll swap ya 1 for 1!  I'll even keep the OEM rapido equipped trucks!

Really don't have a use for it.  The era is right, but I'm modeling B&O and WM now... well... not exactly "modeling"... but I am buying lots of old equipment to run!  PC hoppers are definitely missing from my roster, though.

Lee

[nkalanaga]

No thank you.  As far as I know the CB&Q never owned a silver hopper (at least I've never seen a picture of one), or a 90/100 ton 3-bay hopper similar to Atlas.  I have a red one, in proper CB&Q paint and lettering, but it's in storage "retired".

They had a lot of 100-ton hoppers, but they were the 4-bay cars made by Trainworx.  The sides on the earliest were a little lower, but the models are exact for the later ones.

[Spades]

Coal is mined in California it is called lignite.   https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-12-27-fi-1158-story.html   

It looks like the mine is still in Ione.   The former Kaiser Permanente Quarry/Lehigh Southwest Cement Company near Cupertino, CA was burning coal for the longest time. Tried pellets made from shredded tires but went back to coal.  I don't know what they use now.