Author Topic: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing  (Read 6412 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 33351
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +5555
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2021, 03:10:46 AM »
0
With wisker springing like the newer Kadee HO Scale ones.
Teditor

It seems to me (going by existing N scale knuckle couplers which use molded plastic whisker springs) that those springs can't be molded fine enough for automatic uncoupling).  They are all too stiff.
. . . 42 . . .

Maletrain

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3616
  • Respect: +646
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2021, 09:28:23 AM »
0
It seems to me (going by existing N scale knuckle couplers which use molded plastic whisker springs) that those springs can't be molded fine enough for automatic uncoupling).  They are all too stiff.

I had not seen DKS' patent for a coupler before.  It looks like what I was thinking should have been done by MTL for their True Scale Couplers.

It looks like MTL tried for a cheaper manufacturing process (cast 2 parts with integral plastic springs rather than cast 2 parts and add 2 metal springs).  I am wondering why nobody ever tied to produce the DKS version as a commercial product.

CRL

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2335
  • Needs More Dirt.
  • Respect: +639
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2021, 12:53:54 PM »
0
Peteski:  I'd love to see MT market versions of their Z coupler designed for N scale.  It wouldn't be hard to put the coupler itself on 1015 and/or 1025 shanks, and they'd be direct replacements for the (probably millions) of N couplers already out there.

This is the best option IMHO.

ednadolski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4852
  • Respect: +1826
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2021, 03:28:28 PM »
0
I'd love to see MT market versions of their Z coupler designed for N scale.  It wouldn't be hard to put the coupler itself on 1015 and/or 1025 shanks, and they'd be direct replacements for the (probably millions) of N couplers already out there.

Depends on what you mean by 'hard': technically feasible vs. incurring a tooling investment cost.

Seems tho that all you would get from that is a smaller coupler head?   Otherwise it still has the slinky (inherent in the MT design) plus the oversized draft gear box, which would be non-starters for some folks.

Ed

ednadolski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4852
  • Respect: +1826
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2021, 03:40:10 PM »
0
I am wondering why nobody ever tied to produce the DKS version as a commercial product.

For starters, they would have to pay to license the patent (assuming he were willing to grant a license) along with all the tooling & production costs, as well as whatever royalty or other terms of the license.  Not to mention, they would be taking a risk on an unproven design with no assurance that it actually works as advertised. 

Then you also have to convince your customers to convert, and there is no POC that it is a marketable product.

And after all that there is the concern about the knock-offs, which still can (and do) happen in a global market despite the protections of the patents.

As consumers we take so much of this for granted, yet some times it seems to me it's almost a miracle that anything at all gets produced....

Ed
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 03:44:38 PM by ednadolski »

Mark5

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 11139
  • Always with the negative waves Moriarty ...
  • Respect: +656
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2021, 06:58:37 PM »
0
Looking at the patent, the NZT design has "delicate" aspects (see the "springs") that might make them costly to assemble compared to other knuckles currently on the market (speculation on my part), then the question of compatabilty with existing coupler pockets.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]


Lemosteam

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 5966
  • Gender: Male
  • PRR, The Standard Railroad of my World
  • Respect: +3798
    • Designer at Keystone Details
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2021, 10:50:02 AM »
0
Looking at the patent, the NZT design has "delicate" aspects (see the "springs") that might make them costly to assemble compared to other knuckles currently on the market (speculation on my part), then the question of compatabilty with existing coupler pockets.

(Attachment Link)

@Mark5 , The patent does not necessarily have to mimic the design.  Patents are to protect functional concepts for the most part.

nkalanaga

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 10014
  • Respect: +1527
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2021, 12:59:34 AM »
0
Ed:  There would be tooling costs for any new coupler, so that wouldn't be a factor. 

These would be for people who already have body-mounted couplers, and don't want to modify their cars.  Since they would fit the existing boxes, there wouldn't be any need to redesign those.  They could even be used on trucks, if someone wanted to.

They would also match the existing 903 couplers, so there would be no need for a new design for people converting from truck to body mounts, or for scratchbuilders.  That would allow them to have the smaller coupler, and boxes, using the same coupler as their newly converted ones.

Finally, it's been proven that MT's N and Z couplers work well together, so the entire fleet wouldn't have to be converted at once.

As for "slink", any coupler with integral coil springs will probably have that.  And, as Peteski said, the "whisker" alternative doesn't work well for automatic uncoupling.
N Kalanaga
Be well

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3186
  • Respect: +1553
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2021, 06:55:42 AM »
+2
My cars with modified MTL True-Scale couplers and Standard True-Scale Coupler Boxes from Great Western Car Shops at Shapeways (designed by @wcfn100 ), don't slinky...a most satisfying experience after putting up with that design flaw for decades with the Magne-Matic MTL N-scale and Nn3/Z 903/905 couplers.

Since I stopped using magnets in the 1980's to uncouple cars and reverted to a martini toothpick, then to RIX uncoupling tools, I find the hands-on experience to be more prototypical "feeling" than automatic magnetic uncoupling and is also a good reason to snip off MTL's magnetic dongles.

The last thing that N-scale needs is yet another over-sized fugly looking coupler.

IMO and because I haven't had any experience with the previously named Bowser or LEZ couplers that @ednadolski mentioned, there are only two choices for appearance and performance...MTL's Nn3/Z scale 905/903 couplers, and MTL's True-Scale Couplers, modified with the coupler box designed by TRW's own wcfn100

From a facts standpoint, the MTL 903/905 Nn3/Z scale couplers are very close to a scale prototype size, even though they don't look anything like a prototype coupler.  I visited my local Utah State Railroad Museum and took measurements off of a prototype coupler in several dimensions, then took measurements of a pre-assembled MTL 905 coupler with my digital calipers, converted the prototype measurements to 1:160th scale and compared them.  Here's the result:

Photo (1) - Prototype coupler measurements converted to N-scale vs actual measurements of an MTL pre-assembled 905 Nn3/Z scale coupler:


Just for giggles, I thought I'd see if MTL 905's would couple with scale dummy couplers. Here's the result.

Photo (2) - MTL 905 coupled up with scale dummy coupler:


After performing the surgery needed on MTL True-Scale long-shank, brown couplers to get them to easily couple together, and mounting them in wcfn100's Standard True-Scale Coupler Boxes, I am very happy with both the appearance and performance of this combination.  The bad side is that Shapeways has increased the price on wcfn100's coupler boxes so that they more than double the price of the couplers alone to a total of about $5.55 per car, as opposed to assembled Nn3/Z scale MTL 905's which come in at about $3.50 per car.

The disadvantages of the 905/903's is their distinctly unprototypical appearance, the ungainly coupler box (only one style) and the slinky effect...and maybe that they are more fragile than larger N-scale knuckle couplers. 

The advantages of the 905/903's is their price...especially the 903's which come together pretty easily using a MTL assembly fixture and a vasectomy cauterizer (a fly-fishing line cutter/melter also works great), their near-scale size, interoperability with larger N-scale knuckle couplers, Magne-Matic uncoupling if you like that feature, and automatic centering for straight-line coupling.

The disadvantages of the MTL True-Scale couplers is that they need to be modified to be able to couple up properly, their ungainly coupler box (only one style made by MTL) and, if modified, they don't center automatically, and they don't uncouple using magnets (if you like that feature).  They are also more expensive than 903's if not modified and the stock box is used.  If they ARE modified, and the Great Western Car Shops Standard Coupler Box is used, they are much more expensive then either 903's or 905's...like nearly double the cost of 905's. Oh, and there is no compatibility with more typical N-scale knuckle couplers.

The advantages of the MTL True-Scale couplers is that they are pretty real-looking...with the omission of some obvious features that real couplers have.  NO SLINKY EFFECT!...and with the Great Western Car Shops coupler box, they look even better.  I like the fact that there is no uncoupling dongle hanging off the bottom of the couplers, that they are easy to uncouple using a toothpick or the RIX Uncoupling Tool, and like the prototype, they don't automatically center...which gives the operator one more prototype-like thing to do when coupling up cars.

If MTL would take the bull by the horns and perfect their True-Scale coupler by making a True-Scale appearing coupler box and easier coupling, they'd have a revolutionary design.  As it is, it's up to innovators such as wcfn100 to bridge the gap right now.

Here's a visual comparo of MTL 905's and MTL True-Scale couplers (with the Great Western Car Shops Standard Coupler Box) mounted on my forever project of a super-detailed UP CA-3/4 caboose...

Photo (3) - MTL 905 coupler (with dongle removed) on my project caboose:


Photo (4) - MTL True-Scale Coupler with Great Western Car Shops Standard Coupler Box  on my project caboose:


Although I am not 100% happy with my choice of going with the MTL True-Scale Couplers for my entire fleet of cars and engines, after modification, its advantages outweigh its disadvantages for me.  Inversely, I am not 100% happy with any other coupler that is commercially available either...and the True-Scale Couplers appearance is the best there is for a coupler that isn't a dummy in N-scale.

For my operating philosophy, I don't need or want magnetic uncoupling, or automatic coupler centering, or compatibility, and I LOVE no slinky!  MTL's modified True-Scale Couplers with wcfn100's 3D printed coupler boxes are "it" for me now.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

PS  Just to make it easier if somebody wants to give the MTL True-Scale Coupler a try, modified with Jason's simple modification to use his 3D printed coupler box, here's the quote:
With hopefully a finished design in hand soon, it was time to document the procedure I'm using with the MTL True Scale Coupler.

First the coupler I'm using is the long shank version as the short shank won't give the look and feel of the prototype.



First, trim the coupler pieces off the sprue.



Next, I trim the gathering arm (looked that up, don't know if that's the best term) below the parting line.  This is more aesthetic but does create less friction.





Next I trim down the injection pin(?) as it sits between the two parts and could cause issues.



Then trim the fingers.



Next is the biggest step, cutting a gap in the mounting ring opposite the gathering arm.  This piece has no real forces on it and trimming it relieves some of the spring tension when trying to couple.



After that put the two parts together on a 00-90 screw and weld them together with a soldering iron right nest to the gap you just cut. 



Then to finish it off, the coupler pocket and lid.





Hopefully next time you see this will be the flat head screw version and brown couplers.


Jason
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 07:40:45 AM by robert3985 »

Mark5

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 11139
  • Always with the negative waves Moriarty ...
  • Respect: +656
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2021, 09:42:01 AM »
0
Nice work as usual Robert!

I still want to get my hands on this new Trainworx coupler (at first glance it is smaller) before coming to any conclusions. The lack of slink definitely is attractive to me.

For me, I have to balance the desire for more proto appearance and less slink with converting hundreds of cars (how long do I expect to live?  :lol:).

Like a lot of model railroading, it comes down to how much compromise can you live with?

Mark


ednadolski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4852
  • Respect: +1826
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2021, 10:28:34 AM »
0
After performing the surgery needed on MTL True-Scale long-shank, brown couplers to get them to easily couple together, and mounting them in wcfn100's Standard True-Scale Coupler Boxes, I am very happy with both the appearance and performance of this combination.

@robert3985  thanks, this is very interesting info.   Any chance you could post a quick video of these in action showing how you do the coupling/uncoupling?  (I know, it's really small to see on a vid, but it would be really helpful).

Thanks too for posting @wcfn100 's info - I knew about some of those mods but not all.  I have a few of those long TSCs and the coupler box on hand, so I'll have to give that a try.

Ed


wcfn100

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8863
  • Respect: +1259
    • Chicago Great Western Modeler
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2021, 01:20:37 PM »
0
I want to know how Pat replaced that gondola coupler.   ;)

Jason

learmoia

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4274
  • Gender: Male
  • ......
  • Respect: +1089
    • Ian does Model Railroad stuff on Youtube.
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2021, 01:25:37 PM »
0
Looks promising... But holding excitement until I see some better photos of the coupler and coupler box.

If they come up with an extended draft gear coupler box.. I'd be happy, and with the conversion kits they have already done, it wouldn't surprise me..

~Ian





Mark5

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 11139
  • Always with the negative waves Moriarty ...
  • Respect: +656
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2021, 01:39:04 PM »
0
Also learned here there is an "old" McHenry and a "new" McHenry, will have to take a look at some of my Athearn and see if I can tell the difference.  :D

(I always plan to replace em but I am curious)


nkalanaga

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 10014
  • Respect: +1527
Re: Trainworx N-scale Mini-89 (M89) Coupler Testing
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2021, 12:18:58 AM »
0
I also didn't know there were two McHenrys.  I don't make a habit of replacing mine, but do save my Accumates for that.  I don't trust those little springs on the McHenrys to stay on, and even if I could find the missing one, it's very hard to replace them.
N Kalanaga
Be well