Author Topic: Reverse Loop Staging?  (Read 4390 times)

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peteski

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 09:58:15 PM »
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BTW, I can't see DKS's suggested track mods anywhere in his post - no picture in-line and no link.  Any ideas why not?

Probably due to your browser not handling secure and insecure (mixed) web contents.   There was a recent discussion of why some members can't see DKS' photos. DKS does not upload photos to TRW. TRW uses secure (https) connection, while DKS uses non-secure (http) connection for his photos.
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dcarrell8

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 10:50:12 PM »
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Yes, this. Before deciding electrical questions, I would ask how the staging is to be operated.
You actually have two staging yards, one following the other. This would work well if the intention is to have separate arrival and departure yards, with inbound and outbound crews ending or starting their runs and a staging operator turning and restaging trains inbetween, but it takes extra turnouts for equal number of storage tracks.
If the plan is simply to come in, turn and be ready to come out, I would suggest just one yard, bypassed by the inbound main. If a run-through track is desired, only one track needs to be kept open, as opposed to two in the original design. The reversing section can be anywhere, even on the single approach/bypass track, provided it’s longer than your longest train.
Just my two cents. Fun stuff,
Otto K.

Well I certainly didn't intend for this to evolve into a thread about track planning but I'm certainly glad to have all of the input!

I seriously doubt I will ever have enough operators for your first scenario, more likely it will be the second option. Park a train and leave with another scheduled train.  I have gone back and forth a couple of times on how to arrange this staging, but I haven't really liked anything I've come up with.  It's a learning process for me, I've only ever ran a train in a simple loop or back and forth about 8 feet.

As far as operators go, maybe... If I build it, they will come.
~Dennis 

dcarrell8

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2020, 10:57:58 PM »
+1
I fooled around with the staging and found kind of a composite of the many suggestions.  I had to look up compound ladder, what a space saver!!

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

The tracks are not by any means parallel but you get the idea. 
So the PSX-AR would control the lead switch with gaps on the tangent and diverging route?

Thank you again gentlemen.
~Dennis

bdennis

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2020, 04:08:14 AM »
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Dennis.. Looking good..
Also To your question - "the PSX-AR would control the lead switch with gaps on the tangent and diverging route?"".. Yes.

But.. If you put the insulators on the rails on the frog end, you will need to use a snap coil switch machine on the turnout if you want the PSX-AR to auto throw the turnout when a reverse in polarity is detected.

If you want to use a tortoise machine, then you will need the gaps to be further away from the frog to give the switch machine time to throw fully.
I used a old H&M snap coil switch machine with insulators on the frog end at the rail joins on an Atlas C55 turnout and the PSX-AR was quick enough to find the need to do the auto reverse and throw the switch machine before the loco reached the frog.

The PSX-AR has inputs so that you can add a manual switch to throw the turnout manually also.
Brendan Dennis
N scale - Delaware & Hudson Champlain Division

Cajonpassfan

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2020, 01:26:42 PM »
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I fooled around with the staging and found kind of a composite of the many suggestions.  I had to look up compound ladder, what a space saver!!

(Attachment Link)

The tracks are not by any means parallel but you get the idea. 
So the PSX-AR would control the lead switch with gaps on the tangent and diverging route?

Thank you again gentlemen.
~Dennis

Dennis, much better use of space, and turnouts. I would consider putting the reversing block on the single track approach track; no need to mess around with multiple tracks, switches, potential derailments, multiple trains etc. Just make sure the AR block is longer than your longest train. I have a similar, though a bit larger, staging yard, pic below. (I started some of the sidings before the turn to max out the use of available space, but that’s obviously not necessary).
Good luck, Otto
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 01:31:22 PM by Cajonpassfan »

dcarrell8

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2020, 01:45:21 PM »
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Dennis.. Looking good..
Also To your question - "the PSX-AR would control the lead switch with gaps on the tangent and diverging route?"".. Yes.

But.. If you put the insulators on the rails on the frog end, you will need to use a snap coil switch machine on the turnout if you want the PSX-AR to auto throw the turnout when a reverse in polarity is detected.

If you want to use a tortoise machine, then you will need the gaps to be further away from the frog to give the switch machine time to throw fully.
I used a old H&M snap coil switch machine with insulators on the frog end at the rail joins on an Atlas C55 turnout and the PSX-AR was quick enough to find the need to do the auto reverse and throw the switch machine before the loco reached the frog.

The PSX-AR has inputs so that you can add a manual switch to throw the turnout manually also.

I do want to use Tortoises unless someone can express concerns about using them in hidden staging.  I haven't full thought that part out, or asked for opinions yet.  I Plan on building the turnouts in Fastracks jigs.

I believe @Cajonpassfan mentioned that a reversing section can take place on a single piece of straight track.  The approach to staging is quite long, enough for multiple trains if needed, especially since I expect the average train length to be less than 12-15 cars.  In that case, gap the point end of the of the first turnout, and place the other gap at least as far away from the turnout as the longest train with resistors on the wheel sets or lighting like caboose or passenger cars.  Will this configuration still auto throw the tortoise?  I'm sure I can also accomplish this with bock detection and JMRI somehow.

I do want a continuous run option without having to throw switches every time the train reverses.  It won't be an issue on the other end of the layout.

~Dennis




dcarrell8

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2020, 01:49:49 PM »
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Dennis, much better use of space, and turnouts. I would consider putting the reversing block on the single track approach track; no need to mess around with multiple tracks, switches, potential derailments, multiple trains etc. Just make sure the AR block is longer than your longest train. I have a similar, though a bit larger, staging yard, pic below. (I started some of the sidings before the turn to max out the use of available space, but that’s obviously not necessary).
Good luck, Otto

We must have been typing at the same time. LOL

I like your suggestion much easier, but I gather I will always have to re-align the throat switch once the train is in the loop if I want to continuously run.

reinhardtjh

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2020, 02:06:37 PM »
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Something to watch out for when putting the reverse section on the approach track in the back then you have to be careful you don't have two trains entering the section at the same time.  As in a train crossing into the section while another is perhaps backing out of the yard or switching cars around or changing staging tracks.

Then again, stopping on the reversing section gap is often a bad thing so certain operational rules might have to be made.
John H. Reinhardt
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GaryHinshaw

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2020, 04:37:50 PM »
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^^^ This.  If you put the yard/balloon under the AR, and gap the tracks just beyond the frog of the lead turnout,  you'll never have to worry about bridging gaps at both ends of the AR section, since they would foul each other.  The wiring isn't complicated if you have the bus feeding this yard first pass through the PSX, like a normal circuit breaker.

There are no special issues with Tortoises in a yard like this.  But are you sure you want the lead turnout to auto-throw?  The only situation I see that being advantageous is when you just want to run a single train around the loop.  In most -- perhaps all -- other scenarios, you'll have to be lining yard turnouts, so you might as well include the lead turnout in any route selection routine.

wcfn100

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2020, 05:42:16 PM »
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Just using the rest of the layout as the reversing section is still an option.  :)

Jason

Mike C

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2020, 05:56:09 PM »
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BTW, I can't see DKS's suggested track mods anywhere in his post - no picture in-line and no link.  Any ideas why not?


Same here , photos from other people show up just fine though ........Mike

DKS

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2020, 07:02:07 PM »
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Quote
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In 2019, Google published roadmap for Chrome’s gradual but inexorable push towards blocking mixed content (insecure HTTP subresources – images, audio, and video – loading on HTTPS pages).

Earlier this year, it did the same for mixed content downloads, and effort that is supposed to be finalized in Chrome 86, which is slated to be released in October 2020.

https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2020/08/18/chrome-insecure-forms/

bdennis

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2020, 07:14:19 PM »
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For the lead turnout to auto throw when using a tortoise the gaps on the frog end of the lead in main turnout just need to be a little further away from the frog. That's easy on the back loop track as you can just move the gaps a few inches to the right of the turnout. For the other part that leads to the other turnouts in the main part of staging it will depend on how you lay the turnouts so if you can add say 2 inches between the frog on the left most turnout and the next turnout along all will be well assuming you put the double gap as far from the frog on the left most turnout as possible.

As per Gary's comment, the whole staging including the return loop is within the reversing section. So the 2 output wires from the PSX-AR feeds all your track feeders for the track to the right of the entry turnout on the left.

While you may not use the auto throw function all the time, and given we cant see what the rest of the layout looks like, you may just want to let trains run and not having to watch to throw the turnout is rather handy. I have staging at both ends of my layout and when operating as a lone ranger, I like to set 1 train just running continuously and take another train and switch the industries on the layout. Not having to worry about the auto reverse sections and the auto throw turnout is very handy.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 07:15:54 PM by bdennis »
Brendan Dennis
N scale - Delaware & Hudson Champlain Division

Maletrain

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2020, 07:37:02 PM »
+1

Same here , photos from other people show up just fine though ........Mike

I used to see DKS photos, but apparently the latest Windows update somehow made Chrome stop seeing them.
I would spend some time trying to fix that issue, except that I expect it will recur with future updates and put me back where I am now.
It would at least be nice if the damn computer system showed a link to the questionable source and asked me if I trust it.

dcarrell8

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Re: Reverse Loop Staging?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2020, 08:05:44 PM »
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^^^ This.  If you put the yard/balloon under the AR, and gap the tracks just beyond the frog of the lead turnout,  you'll never have to worry about bridging gaps at both ends of the AR section, since they would foul each other.  The wiring isn't complicated if you have the bus feeding this yard first pass through the PSX, like a normal circuit breaker.

There are no special issues with Tortoises in a yard like this.  But are you sure you want the lead turnout to auto-throw?  The only situation I see that being advantageous is when you just want to run a single train around the loop.  In most -- perhaps all -- other scenarios, you'll have to be lining yard turnouts, so you might as well include the lead turnout in any route selection routine.

As @bdennis mentioned, I will find it handy to allow one train to continuously loop while I work other yards and or trains by myself.  I'm sure I will be operating as a lone ranger most of the time.
~Dennis