FireBox: A Tiny DCC Train Controller

[reinhardtjh]

The Kickstart page does have an update, from 10/9/20, titled "The End of the Road".  You have to log in to see it.

Yes, I believe most of us backers have seen it.  There are currently 10 comments on that update and they get progressively nastier.

Of note is the Firebox thread over on Trainboard.  Both David and the other main listed software developer for DCC+++EX are members there.  They are not happy about things either.  FlightRisk, the other main listed developer mentioned he it talking options ofver with David.  If the hardware is complete and it's just software to finish, then maybe something will be coming of this yet.

Trainboard: FireBox: A Tiny DCC Train Controller

A lot of time and money went into the project. I think David is feeling the frustration a lot of us go through at times. I'm speaking with him about options.

[peteski]

Looking at Dave's profile info his last visit to TRW was  Today at 11:43:05 AM.

[Rivet Miscounter]

I too believe Kickstarter has been told the project is complete rather than cancelled.  I have held off responding to the Reward Survey awaiting further clarification from the developer.

I think that is correct...there is nothing that indicates the project has been cancelled that I can see.   And those of us who (likely stupidly) submitted the survey are now unable to file a complaint, the best I can tell.   (I'm still looking into that.). So basically, we look like the bad guys requesting a refund, and probably lets David off scot-free to keep whatever funds he wants?   Damn, this is getting weirder and more frustrating by the day.   

First and last Kickstarter campaign I'll ever do.  And a free tip for any of you still in the game...never commit to multiples.  It's a $110 lesson learned for me, not a $55 one.   

[reinhardtjh]

I think that is correct...there is nothing that indicates the project has been cancelled that I can see.   And those of us who (likely stupidly) submitted the survey are now unable to file a complaint, the best I can tell.   (I'm still looking into that.). So basically, we look like the bad guys requesting a refund, and probably lets David off scot-free to keep whatever funds he wants?   Damn, this is getting weirder and more frustrating by the day.   

First and last Kickstarter campaign I'll ever do.  And a free tip for any of you still in the game...never commit to multiples.  It's a $110 lesson learned for me, not a $55 one.   

If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the "Campaign" page, there is a "Report this project to Kickstart" button that brings up several options.  One may work.  I also replied to the survey asking for a refund.  At least the button is still there, whether it makes any difference, time will tell.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wasatchscalemodels/firebox-a-tiny-dcc-train-controller/description

[Rivet Miscounter]

If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the "Campaign" page, there is a "Report this project to Kickstart" button that brings up several options.  One may work.  I also replied to the survey asking for a refund.  At least the button is still there, whether it makes any difference, time will tell.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wasatchscalemodels/firebox-a-tiny-dcc-train-controller/description

Thanks John, I had found another method of reporting to the "Community Leaders" too.  That process did suggest contacting the creator through the Kickstarter PM, so I did that as well.

[dcutting]

[MK]

Again, I don't have a horse in this race but I think the main question people want answered is why are people's money not returned 100% since nothing was delivered?

Or are their money returned 100%?

[conrad]

My horse in this race is a nag. 

But if he's to go to the slaughterhouse at least I should get something for him.

Conrad

[daniel_leavitt2000]

I almost forgot about my experience with CESM - ALMOST.

Yep, this is exactly how things went down when I tried to get those Comet cars designed. Lost of promises, bluster, then dead air.

Dave, some advice. If you have an idea for a project then fund it yourself. I have done this several times: Working on shrinking vehicles to N scale, getting an etched kit made for the Walthers PD hopper. I often find that the product is good enough for my own use, but not the quality I would sell to others. Some are salvageable the etched kit needs a new run in a different metal. Some are not.

But you simply can't take people's money without being 90% though development and production. Come on man.

[DKS]

I don't have a horse in this race but I think the main question people want answered is why are people's money not returned 100% since nothing was delivered?

I don't have a horse in this race, either, but I have been on the manufacturing end of things, and if I can't deliver a product, I eat 100% of the cost, and everyone is refunded 100% of their investment. Yeah, that can hurt, but it's supposed to. It keeps overenthusiastic young-uns from becoming repeat offenders, and it builds goodwill with your customers, so the next time you've got your hand out, they're not gun shy. (It also keeps you from abusing Kickstarter.)

Also... you are now 0 for 2. Better find a project that isn't more than you can chew, or your business history will be identified by a string of failures and you'll go down in flames. Check out the history of BLMA (another young, enthusiastic dude) for a lesson in how to do it right. He started with little etched brass detail parts kits, and went on to manufacture state-of-the-art rolling stock...

BTW, business websites are all-important. Yours still says "FireBox - Successfully Funded on Kickstarter!" You must make the time to keep your website updated, or it will only add to confusion and leave bad impressions. Tell the truth. Or... take it down.

Just sayin'.

[Rivet Miscounter]

Again, I don't have a horse in this race but I think the main question people want answered is why are people's money not returned 100% since nothing was delivered?

I don't think many expect 100%.  It's not a zero risk game.   (even though the risk was definitely irresponsibly shielded, to put it kindly.)

But, there are still a lot of other questions/concerns outside of that.   I'll let others beat that dead horse.

[reinhardtjh]

That there aren't enough funds to even just produce the hardware is disappointing.  I was aware of some feature creep, but I thought most was on the software side, not the hardware.  Yes, there were options that would have required more hardware, but that's what the expansion port was for at a later date, not included in the basic starter setup.

Delivering just a basic working piece of hardware would be nice.  Bells and whistles aside.

[thomasjmdavis]

David,
I would recommend that you go through this thread, take notes of the issues raised, list them out and answer them.  Your note a few entries above this one does not address any of the concerns expressed on this thread. 

From my point of view, first and foremost, you must inform Kickstarter that you have abandoned the project and will not be delivering any product. Instead of a notice that the project is abandoned,  I just a received a "final notice" that I must claim my "reward" immediately or lose out.  It is clear that you have told Kickstarter that the project is complete- which is a lie- and that I can receive my Firebox- which I cannot.  If we ask for a refund (which is not indicated as a partial refund, which is what it really is), then we risk being identified as "backing out" by Kickstarter, which could complicate things for us if we choose to participate in future projects.  So, I have some unknown amount of time to claim a refund, without any questions answered, while tacitly acknowledging that you completed the project. Nice high pressure move there.

Frankly, given your conduct in this, it is probably worth the $46 I paid for the early bird special to NOT give you my paypal email or any other information.  In point of fact, it should be possible, since we must have all done our original payments via credit card on the Kickstarter site, for Kickstarter to reverse the process just as any retailer would do in a refund situation, without involving our paypal accounts at all.

I may or may not file a formal complaint, but you seem to be abusing the process.  That may sound harsh, but I do not think you have a legal understanding of the contracts that exist between you and us, you and Kickstarter, or us and Kickstarter, or even just an ethical understanding of the Kickstarter rules.

[C855B]

I just received a "Final Reminder!", too, which I interpret in the same way: respond, or lose out. What angers me is there was a four day window after the initial notice to respond. If this was two weeks ago and caught me out camping, it would evidently be "Sorry, Charlie," even if the project was completed and successful. That is incredibly abusive.

1) I will never participate in any Kickstarter project again, so help me God.

2) I reiterate: David, telling Kickstarter the project is "completed" when it is not is fraud, especially because you are receiving renumeration on your own declaration. A petty fraud, maybe, but what's happening here is you've cooked the books to reward yourself for unfinished work, with no deliverables.

3) By taking this "we're done" tack, you have closed the door to passing the hat. You could have admitted that you badly underestimated production costs, were going to need $X more per unit, and allow us to chip-in to make the project successful.

4) Others say this is your second failure to deliver on big promises, you and I know this is your third. Your reputation for cut-and-run when things get real is now firmly entrenched. Twice I can chalk up to youth and inexperience, thrice is... well, thrice. If you ever splash a big MRR project with commercial intent again, online or otherwise, you now have a veritable army who will call your bluff.

I'm with Thomas. I'm not going to give you or Kickstarter any link to my PayPal account. This situation is ugly enough as it is and I'm not about to amplify my risk by letting my personal info flap in the breeze. To say trust has been violated is an understatement.

[reinhardtjh]

I almost forgot about my experience with CESM - ALMOST.

Yep, this is exactly how things went down when I tried to get those Comet cars designed. Lost of promises, bluster, then dead air.

Dave, some advice. If you have an idea for a project then fund it yourself. I have done this several times: Working on shrinking vehicles to N scale, getting an etched kit made for the Walthers PD hopper. I often find that the product is good enough for my own use, but not the quality I would sell to others. Some are salvageable the etched kit needs a new run in a different metal. Some are not.

But you simply can't take people's money without being 90% though development and production. Come on man.

Another recent good example of this is the Kato F3/F7/P40/FP40 board designed by @skent.  He saw a need, designed and produced 250 boards on his own, without Kickstarter funding and has a hit product selling on Ebay, Yankee Dabbler, Streamlined Backshops and perhaps other places.