State of the Art in MRR Signaling 2020

[Rivet Miscounter]

What is State of the Art in working signals in model railroading at this time?   Since selling off my Digitrax transponding infrastructure 7-8 years ago (having never fully implemented it) I haven't really kept up with this realm.  I assume that Arduino has made a mark.  I'm pretty much starting from scratch and if Digitrax is still the best answer it will impact some additional decoder purchases (the issue at hand, really) among other things.   (Transponding isn't a requirement, btw, but if I'm going to bother with Digitrax block detection...might as well.)

I will likely scratchbuild all of the signals myself, and practically speaking I'm talking about 4-5 passing sidings, each with three signals on each end. (two inward-facing 3-aspect single target and one 3-over-3 dual target facing opposite on the  single main.)   A picture is worth a thousand words...

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So, I expect several of you are pretty up to speed, so any guidance, opinions, and resources you can give is appreciated.

I would really be curious to know if anyone has actually implemented Digitrax detection/[transponding] and signaling.

[John]

Disclaimer -- I run Digitrax for signalling -- and am happy with the SE8Cs ..

RRcircuits http://rr-circuits.com/description/index.html has a full line of products to do signalling, and NCE has some light only decoders that can be used for signals.

Team Digital is another manufacturer that makes products to do signally ..

Just accept the fact that you will need to do block detection -- and also some software to run them ..

I would stick to one manufacturer for each type of component .. ie .. the same block detectors, the same driver boards, etc ..  it's easier from a maintenance point .. think Southwest Airlines --- one type of plane ..

Scratch built signals aren't that hard .. especially if you use 3D printed heads .. I use a combo of the digitrax signal masts, and then built a bunch of signals from scratch using brass, leds and magnet wire ..

The old model power signal bridges can be modified to make a credible bridge .. modern signal bridges could be 3d printed ..

[Rivet Miscounter]

it's easier from a maintenance point .. think Southwest Airlines --- one type of plane ..

Thanks John.  Glad to hear the SE8C's are working out for you.   I'm not opposed to them from a function standpoint and I like the support aspect.   I was just thinking that an Arduino-based solution might be cheaper and a little more flexible, but I really don't know what exists.  I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, and I don't think I'm doing anything overly complex, so just trying to get ideas.   I will definitely bone-up on RRcircuits stuff (I have their USB-to-Loconet adapter) and Team Digital.  Yes, definitely know that block detection and software wrangling is in my future.   Good thing is I have time, my current layout doesn't have working signals, and it's just now at trains running stage.    Layout 2.0 will be at least a year or two off....still in very early design stages.

I do currently have a Digitrax Zephyr but I expect to get a new command station before all is said and done, likely either Digitrax or NCE.   I'm one of the weirdos that actually does like Digitrax's controllers so I would be shocked if I don't stick with Digitrax on the command station front.  But I have been using TCS decoders and I'm pondering going back to Digitrax...I had pretty well dismissed ever trying transponding again, but anyway....   I think I'll get some Digitrax decoders and compare/contrast.

Yes, the Digitrax signal masts are great for getting function in place and then go back through and replace them with something better eventually.  I definitely want to utilize 3D printing.   No signal bridges to speak of...everything is pretty well 100% exactly what is in the photo.   May be a few searchlights here and there, and I know of one Cantilever that I may try to include but that's it.

It's funny that you mention the Southwest maintenance advantage.  My senior project in my business strategy class in college (mid-90s) was on that exact topic.  Mr. Kelleher was one fascinating dude.

[Rivet Miscounter]

Wow, here's something I wasn't aware of.   This REALLY makes things easier to get things up and running.  Digitrax has really upped the game with the black masts and the perfect mix of signals for what I need.   Very nice.

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[John]

This guy has a couple of video's using the arduino

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[C855B]

Disclaimer - I'm in the starting throes of what will be a complex signalling system for my MRR, as evidenced by this live demo:

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... RRcircuits http://rr-circuits.com/description/index.html has a full line of products to do signalling, and NCE has some light only decoders that can be used for signals. ...

I'll expand on this. Dick Bronson (of RR-cirkits) developed an extensive line of signal control components based on a communications system he designed, including interfaces to LocoNet and JMRI. He has recently parlayed this into an LCC-based system (Layout Command Control®) featuring both autonomous logic and integration into JMRI. LCC was intended to be a functional extension of DCC focused on layout automation as opposed to controlling trains.

In some respects LCC is where the state of the art is in signaling, in other respects it suffers from the "horse designed by a committee" problem (i.e., a camel). LCC incorporates CAN bus as the comm layer, which IMO is its curse - CAN bus hardware is expensive relative to legacy protocols like DCC, LocoNet and even Ethernet and WiFi.

Bottom line: LCC is has its devotees, but there is little growth in off-the-shelf support beyond Dick's high-quality product line. It is also complex to configure.

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The system I am building is on a JMRI core that controls the entire layout, currently running on a Raspberry Pi 4 but easily upgradeable to a full desktop computer if the little Pi runs out of steam. It hasn't yet. Detection was initially with the MRCS cpOD feeding Tam Valley QuadLN_S controllers, but last year's release of a plug-in detection board for the QuadLN improved the cost per block and significantly reduced wiring overhead. An advantage of the QuadLN is it uses the LocoNet bus directly.

I use the (now) RR-cirkits SHD-2 for signal control, a very small board intended for per-site installation, as opposed to a big, centralized control board requiring a lot of fan-out wiring. At $6/head it's cheap, and it works very well. It uses the DCC track bus, so if your plans are big (like mine are), I designed with accommodation for a future separate DCC bus for when the going gets tough.

@John , Team Digital discontinued their signal components 'cept the dual detector. Dick was the designer/manufacturer of the SHD-2 in the first place, and he incorporated that product into his selections early this year.

I'm not fond of the Arduino and other you-can-do-it-really-cheap microcontroller implementations. Getting these to work despite the online "how to" recipies is a hobby in and of itself, and, frankly, I would call the firmware and support "weak". Most of my career was in custom computer control integrations sometimes down to the circuit board level - this very same stuff - and retirement amounted to "enough of that $#!+". It's that experience behind my choices of JMRI master control and distributed plug-and-play controller boards as the easiest to build and configure, and the shortest path to signal control.

[John]

I'm actually planning on using the SHD-2 for a couple of locations that I want to add some signals -- I don't need a full up SE8C for those locations .. and save me the trouble of running CAT 5

I normally wire a short section of ribbon cable to CAT5 on both ends, so that I can use the DIN connectors .. saves some space and money

[bdennis]

I run Digitrax BDL168's for detection and then use a mix of Digitrax SE8C, DS54, Team Digital SRC-16 to drive turnouts and then RR-Cirkits TC64, Digitrax SE8C, Team digital SCR16 and other PIC based Loco IO HDL boards to drive the signals. All via Digitrax Loconet. The backbone of the Loconet pulls it all together and works well.
I have scratch built brass signals with brass etching for the masts that are the D&H design using Common Anode 3 pin LED's (Red / Green) and then drive both to get a yellow.

I have had great success with RR-Cirkits stuff in the past with top notch support.

[GaryHinshaw]

Also a big fan of RR-CirKits.  I use the Motorman, Watchman, and Signalman boards for turnout control, block detection, and signal driving, respectively.  These are configured and controlled via JMRI and (in my case) CATS.  Not sure if this is state of the art, but it works well.

The board configuration is quasi-centralized in that each board can drive up to 8 turnouts (Motorman), detect up to 8 blocks (Watchman), and drive up to 4 signal heads (Signalman).  The boards run off a "Simple Serial Bus" (SSB) which in turn hangs off a Loconet bus which connects to JMRI.  (You can have standalone Loconet busses, so you don't need to have a Digitrax layout for this scheme to work).   The basic trade-off in choosing a system is how distributed you want it to be: at one extreme every board is local to the hardware it operates, and you run a bus to all of them; the other extreme is that all boards are centralized and you run fan-out wiring to the hardware.  The Motorman/Watchman/Signalman scheme is quasi-distributed.

In any of these schemes, expect to do a LOT of wiring.  If that turns you off, reconsider your choice of prototype.

[Jbub]

Speaking of Loconet, does anyone know if ESU has enabled support yet on the Cab Control DCC system? There is a port for Loconet on the command station.

[greenwizard88]

I've had great success setting up an LCC network with detection and signaling. Once it's set up, you don't even need JMRI. Ultimately, I want automated train control so I run my signals off of JMRI, but it was a good learning experience.

I'd highly recommend rr-cirkits LCC products.

[Jbub]

Since Google spy's on us this showed up in my YouTube recommended interests.

They're correct in their assumption but still...

[Rivet Miscounter]

Gentlemen, thanks for the responses.   This is exactly the type of information I was looking for.   "Been there, done this".   Looks like my assumptions about Arduino weren't exactly correct, and that's good to know too.  Unlikely there's gonna be a "dummy if you were starting from scratch why didn't you use Arduino" scenario, at least at this point in time.   I'm really encouraged by those new Digitrax signal masts on a number of levels, and I'm basically familiar with the SE8C's already.  Counterpoint is they're probably eclipsing 20 years old now?   (Maybe the SE8CXtra is on the way.    )   

Regardless, I'm still going to dig into some of the other suggestions as maybe one of those will suit me better.    And I need to figure out exactly how BNSF did their signals on the line I model, and how that can translate to a very compressed main line.   One railroad guy called it "CTC-on-an-Island", some type of hybrid TWC/CTC thing.   And there were some really unusual procedures that the trains followed that I need to find some hard information about.    Fortunately I know several BNSF guys including a few dispatchers and signal guys so hopefully that will only cost me a few beers.   

[John]

Regardless, I'm still going to dig into some of the other suggestions as maybe one of those will suit me better.    And I need to figure out exactly how BNSF did their signals on the line I model, and how that can translate to a very compressed main line.   One railroad guy called it "CTC-on-an-Island", some type of hybrid TWC/CTC thing.   And there were some really unusual procedures that the trains followed that I need to find some hard information about.    Fortunately I know several BNSF guys including a few dispatchers and signal guys so hopefully that will only cost me a few beers.   

Thats one of the neat things about JMRI -- the signal masts in PanelPro can be set up to follow many of the prototype railroad rules ..

https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/tools/signaling/index.shtml

They have the BNSF 1996 signal rules modeled ..  https://www.jmri.org/xml/signals/BNSF-1996/index.shtml

[bdennis]

Per John and JMRI, if you like "most" of what JMRI has in a specific set up like the BNSF-1996 set and you want to "tweak" the aspects etc then this can also be done. I used AAR-1946 but then modified it to take out some aspects I did not want to show to simplify things.