The BNSF Red River Valley Sub

[CRL]

Too late... Z-scale = lost mind.

 

[Hoot]

It looks like you and I have similar interests except that I'm modeling the FW&D in the 70's when you could see Cascade Green with FWD and C&S sub lettered SD9's and lots of run through Coal traffic. Up until Powder River Coal started making it's way into Texas the old FWD line was essentially a very long branch line. I'm interested in seeing your progress!

HooT

[Rivet Miscounter]

Hi @Hoot !  Yes, that was a great time period...I grew up literally along the ROW of the FW&D in the 70's so I'm very familiar with that of which you speak.      Along with the 70's I also like the mid/late 80's timeframe...lot of colorful motive power, the 91/92 trains, lots of coal.  But I always loved ATSF too--and Intermodal--and early BNSF is just too hard to pass up for me.   Now it's sort of slid into "quasi-early" BNSF but there is still enough heritage around in the 2005 timeframe that I still get to run some interesting consists, still some early EMD stuff, still got the UFIX trains, etc.   Do you have info/pics of what you've done or planning?  Would love to see what you have...I know of a few others modeling the FW&D at various times.   Also, if you are on FB, I manage a page for the FW&D so if you aren't a member yet you should definitely check it out.  facebook.com/groups/fwdry .

I've sort of gone off on a tangent researching signals and learning that a good bit of the line I'm looking at still had searchlights, and also pure CTC versus ABS/TWC east of Wichita Falls.  That somewhat disappointing as I love the quirkiness of the ABS/TWC stuff.

Also I've been doing a lot of soul-searching about what to model and I think I have some good ideas about where I want to go with it.  I think Wichita Falls is a given, and I want to include Chillicothe and Quanah.   WF is just a lot to cover...right angles and such, and likewise Quanah's arrangement is just a space-eater so I'm trying to figure out how to simplify without completely losing the essence of the scene. 

I think I've decided to abandon anything west of Quanah and possibly include Vernon and the Pease River crossing in lieu of the larger and more well known crossing of the Red River (specifically, the quite verbose "Prairie Dog Town Branch of the Red River") near Estelline.   Vernon definitely adds some more ops opportunities.  I want to model at least part of the line east of WF just to give some run time to the UP local and UP grain trains off the WT&J. (and see above about ABS/TWC)   Given the idea for the cutoff at Quanah I think I can fit that in, but not sure I can do that AND Vernon.   (and a very conservative idea I have is doing away with WF and basically modeling Vernon, Chillicothe, and Quanah almost verbatim.   That one will be tough to sign off on though...but possibly as a "Phase I".)

[Rivet Miscounter]

the old FWD line was essentially a very long branch line.

I meant to comment on this...I think this is exactly why I love this stretch of railroad.  To a large extent, I think it still has this personality.   I just like the contrast of small town Texas, rural living, rugged west-Texas scenery starting to peek out in places, and yet....here comes a modern BNSF Intermodal about to meet a 130-car coal train...and then the dust settles and we're back-in-time watching a 50+ year old Geep switching a farmers' co-op.

[MDW]

Doug -
Even if you just modeled Wichita Falls, you’d be set.   It’s the perfect size, photogenic, with plenty of operational interest.  At one time, long ago, I thought about modeling WF from a Katy perspective.

Can’t wait to watch your layout progress.
Michel

[Hoot]

I meant to comment on this...I think this is exactly why I love this stretch of railroad.  To a large extent, I think it still has this personality.   I just like the contrast of small town Texas, rural living, rugged west-Texas scenery starting to peek out in places, and yet....here comes a modern BNSF Intermodal about to meet a 130-car coal train...and then the dust settles and we're back-in-time watching a 50+ year old Geep switching a farmers' co-op.

That is what draws me to it too. I was born and raised in Fort Worth, but I've spent the last 20 years in the Navy. My brother who is a BNSF engineer out of Tulsa worked the Quanah Switcher Job last fall for about two months. He was running three GP-38-2's. When I join your FB group I'll add the photo's he took.

I haven't done much in the way of planning. I'm still trying to figure things out. I don't have enough room to do the mainline justice, so I'm looking for a branch, probably around Lubbock. I'm pretty married to the 70's. I love the rainbow era in railroading. I have an 8x12 space so I'll be building a doughnut shape layout with 18" wide shelves so 24" radius will be my maximum curve. Luckily the BN transferred 4 ex-GN GP7's to the FWD so I can justify having 4 axle non-NW/SW units running on the layout. Most of my research comes from the CARRTRACKS, FALLEN FLAGS, RRPICTURERESEARCH websites, and a 1967 FWD timetable.

[MDW]

Also check out the FB Texas Railroad History group.  Some great FW&D steam and first generation diesel photos there - totally dig those old Chinese Red SD’s......

Michel

[Rivet Miscounter]

Here's the blank canvas...

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Couple of notes:
1. Pretty much all this space is "in play" sans the hallway in the lower left.   The smaller closet in the bottom middle probably would only be available as a possible hidden return track or something along those lines...it will otherwise need to stay as-is.   I anticipate the larger closet housing a helix along the left side and using access windows cut out from the smaller closet for the ability to reach the back of the helix.   But that is far from being set in stone yet.
2. I did leave out a window across the top, pretty much centered I think.  I'll try and update the diagram to reflect the location more accurately.   It won't really affect the layout...it sits low enough for emergency access and I'll cover it up with a backdrop otherwise.

[DKS]

OK, so to get the ball rolling, here are some things to ponder--or outright reject. (Often it's just as valuable to determine what you don't want as it is what you do.)

I took this approach: What are the usable areas in the room? Consider aisle space above all else--if the layout can't be built or operated conveniently, it's not much good.

I made the assumption of no helix--for now. If you plan for one at the outset, you've got an enormous challenge that is at risk of never getting anywhere. However, if the layout is designed to be "helix ready," you'll have a much better shot of seeing trains running sooner rather than later--or never.

Yes, I also assumed continuous running, but that's easily undone. I made the loop intertwine with itself so that it had visible stretches alternating with hidden ones, to create a sense of much more mileage between scenes.

Lastly, the closet houses a nice big staging yard.

Again, this is just meant to simulate thinking, discussion, and (hopefully) substantive progress.

[Rivet Miscounter]

David,

Thanks for getting the ball rolling.   I should probably roll out some "Givens and Druthers" before I go any further...there will be things wrought out in that such as "no duckunders" that would impact your thought processes. (I'm 6' 4", questionable knees, and I'm not getting any younger  )

I do agree there are multiple configurations that are possible and I'm exploring them all.   Yet, I envision the simple/boring version that follows as the starting point to minimize hidden trackage and any duckunders. (track won't likely be so parallel like that along the right, this is just a conceptual of the overall "blob configuration" as it were.)   Basically three levels...two "active" and one staging.   The active levels are out to helix, up and back.   Closet helix connects all levels.  The minimum radius here for the blob turnaround is 245mm, roughly comparable to a 13.25in radius in N.   I want to be closer to a 16in equiv in N, but the pinch points are sitting at around 3ft as it stands, and I think if they had to drop down to 30in I would be ok with that.  And that is "if" I did the center peninsula, which isn't a given at this point.  I might be AOK with just doing around the walls, depending on what I can make happen with the two levels feature-wise.  (LDE's to follow soon after the G&D's, and we'll get to the nut cuttin'.)

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[MDW]

Doug

With David’s help, you are off to a good start.   
I’m sure you will figure it all out, and I’ll just suggest you check your return loop/helices.   You are drawing what looks like 12” radius curves which are awfully tight, particularly for a helix.  Once you get your head around that, you’ll better understand whether a peninsula works and what it does to your aisles.
Can’t wait to see what you come up with.

Michel

[Rivet Miscounter]

I’m sure you will figure it all out, and I’ll just suggest you check your return loop/helices.   You are drawing what looks like 12” radius curves which are awfully tight, particularly for a helix.  Once you get your head around that, you’ll better understand whether a peninsula works and what it does to your aisles.

The radius is even worse than that, actually.   I'm trying to use the largest paired radii that Rokuhan has, which is 245mm (9.64567") and 270mm. (10.6299")   With the tangents, it comes out to a little over 2% grade assuming I can build it with minimum separation.   I definitely know this is playing with fire, but I do intend to extensively test it out before moving forward.   The ascending radius is roughly equivalent to 14-5/8" in n-scale, which is about 1-3/4" less than the Kato helix I built at one point.   It ran fine in the limited testing I did with it and had a steeper grade. (less equivalent tangent track)   I can of course build a less risky/larger radii one with Atlas track, which may have to be done.

[MDW]

Doug-
Crap......Totally spaced on the fact your modeling in z scale!   
All makes sense now.

Michel

[Rivet Miscounter]

I've been really putting a lot of (undocumented) thought into this without updating, so I'm going to try and backtrack a bit and describe where my meandering mind has taken me.

First and foremost, I am really wanting to avoid biting off more than I can chew.  That has sort of taken me in a couple of directions and I'll try to summarize those in a couple of points.
1. I think I am going to start with a smaller footprint, only utilizing the rightmost wall and closet areas.   Idea being to build a dogbone type of plan, then eventually the helix down to a same-footprint staging dogbone.   At that point, my main operating challenges have been tested and I can feel confident (or not) about moving forward with Z and filling the room full of layout.
1b. One alternative I'm considering is same basic concepts but using a couple of T-Trak-Z Quint Modules for the visible layout section, with either a loop module or some "homerun" modules circling behind the Quints.
2. I've really fallen in love with the Quanah/Acme as the focal point.  (versus Wichita Falls)   Ultimately hope to not completely eliminate Wichita Falls, but certainly the first dogbone will represent the area around Quanah, TX.    It is a much less complex series of elements, which helps with things like cost (buildings and turnouts, among other things) and time to get some semblance of completion.   Yet despite the simplicity, it still has a lot of what I want.

[Rivet Miscounter]

So, with that out on the table, I have promised some maps/LDE fodder, and here goes...

I'll start with a couple of way-sky-high views of the Quanah area, showing the town of Quanah and a 5 mile stretch of doubletrack running northwest of Quanah to Acme, home of a Georgia Pacific  gypsum plant.

This is the city of Quanah.  All trackage is BNSF, but waaaay back the bulk of the trackage here belonged to the Quanah, Acme, and Pacific Ry, which eventually became Frisco, then BN, then BNSF.   The east-west line along the bottom belonged to the Fort Worth & Denver Ry, then BN, then BNSF.   So the odd conglomeration of trackage (two wyes within a mile, an actual return loop, etc.) is the result.

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KEY:
Orange = mainlines (South)East - (North)West ex-BN/FW&D and North branch main to Altus
Red = Remaining branch/industry trackage

The town has a small yard and four industries.   There is still a lot I don't know about the area and operations but I'll comment on what I have so far:
1. Yard - Four-track double-ended ladder plus one stub end track along the east side.  Wye to the north is also used for car storage...northwest leg has siding/runaround track running the length plus several hundred feet adjacent the branchline main to the north. (that northern-most switch is cut off in the photo)  Maintenance offices/supplies inside wye.   The yard generally has a pair of geeps as power.   It serves not only the industries in Quanah, but also the gypsum plant in Acme.   There is also a turn that mostly sweeps grain hoppers out of southwest Oklahoma plus large elevators and interchange at Altus, OK.
2. Cotton Oil Mill - the large complex just east of the yard is a (now defunct) cotton oil mill.  This is just a really interesting large industry set in a small town that just really sets the scene.  I have some evidence that it was clinging to life in the mid-2000 timeframe I model, but regardless it will be incorporated as if it was still at least somewhat relevant and rail-served.
3. Co-Op - this is a siding along the yard opposite the Cotton Mill that seems to be mostly for offloading fertilizer. (I think)  Still researching as I don't have any pics of freight cars spotted there.
4. Grain Elevator #1 - the rightmost elevator utilized the left leg of the wye track.  I presume this is primarily used for overflow during the height of grain season, and overall I'm not sure of its use at all in recent times.
5. Grain Elevator #2 - the leftmost elevator does have a dedicated siding for hoppers.  This one will for sure be modeled and assumed active although rare are photos of cars spotted there of late.