Using An Older Computer

[BCR751]

This is electronics related so I hope it's ok to post here.  I picked up an "old" Toshiba laptop that's currently running with Windows XP.  I would like to use this laptop to run Decoder Pro.  Can I delete XP and install Windows 10 on this unit?

Doug

[peteski]

That is iffy.  Win 10 might not have the proper hardware drivers for it.  It depends on how old it is.
Why not just use XP?  Or if you want to go newer, Windows 7 might work on it.
There is probably a compatibility info somewhere online listing older HW compatible with newer Windows versions.  Just Google  Toshiba <model number> Windows 10 and see what pops up.

I have 2 older computers at home.  One is an old AMD Athlon based desktop running Win 98SE (for may Alps printer, and older Corel Draw for designing decal and other artwork), and a Dell Latitude E6410 Laptop which is about 7 years old running Win 7 PRO (on which I'm typing up this message).

[C855B]

I'm not a Win-anything expert, but I'm sort of with Pete. My direct experiences with the common Toshiba laptops of the vintage I suspect you are talking about (7-8 years old, maybe?) make me think it has neither enough horsepower nor memory to run Win10. Win7 might be OK-ish, although I have to wonder if layering Java on top of that to run the JMRI suite will bring it to its knees.

I was... obviously... not impressed with the Toshibas they gave us at my last job. They'd give us new ones every two or three years for the Javascript apps we were developing and supporting, each major release of our code being a little too much for the laptops we had to support the previous version. (They also didn't seem to travel all that well, tending to fall apart, at least for my co-workers. I was evidently kinder and gentler.)

As an alternative, if you're planning on dumping XP anyway you could try making the jump to Linux. Ubuntu and Debian are easy installs (I dual-booted my Toshibas). Linux is not as taxing - at least to the computer  - as MS OSes, and Java is not as consumptive under Linux.

I will comment that free-to-you computers come at quite a cost in personal time these days with the way the major software houses are withdrawing legacy support, sending you on a scavenger hunt for bits that might work. I have a junk box full of 10-to-15-y-o laptops and CPUs that I need to cart off to the recycler, having adopted the über-cheap (~$50) Raspberry Pi4 as my platform of choice for things like JMRI. FWIW.

[John]

Be careful if you go with the newer Linux distros .. the newer loads are becoming more taxing  ..

https://itsfoss.com/lightweight-linux-beginners/

[Maletrain]

Isn't there still a version of Decoder Pro that works with XP?  If so, does it get the latest updates for new decoders?

[John]

Isn't there still a version of Decoder Pro that works with XP?  If so, does it get the latest updates for new decoders?

https://www.jmri.org/install/WindowsNew.shtml

Using JMRI requires a combination of hardware (in this case running Windows), Java software and a JMRI download for a specific version.

JMRI® version 4.2 requires Java 1.8.
Version 3.10.1 requires Java 1.6 or later.
Version 2.14.1 requires Java 1.5 (or 1.6 if you wish for drag & drop).

Windows 7-10 and Vista SP2 can run the current JMRI test and production releases with Java 8. If your computer runs one of these Windows versions, just go to the next step.
Computers running Vista SP1 can run JMRI 3.10.1 using Java 1.7.
Windows2000 SP3 and XP systems can run JMRI 2.14.1 using Java 1.6.
Windows98 and ME can run JMRI 2.8.

Note: It is possible to install Java 1.8 onto machines running Windows XP or Vista SP1, but this is unsupported by Oracle.

    To do this for Windows XP, visit the Java Releases Archive page and choose the "Java SE Runtime Environment 8u151" installer for "Windows x86 Offline". The file name is jre-8u151-windows-i586.exe. This is the last installer that worked for Windows XP; if you later get prompted to do a Java Update to a newer version than 151, cancel it instead of applying it (if you do apply the update, you'll have to reinstall the 151 version of Java as described here.) The installer will complain that it is unsupported, but should allow you to continue with the installation. Assuming that this is successful, proceed with installation of current JMRI test and production releases.
    To do this for Windows Vista SP1, visit the Manual Java Downloads page and choose the Offline Installer for Windows. The installer will complain that it is unsupported, but should allow you to continue with the installation. Assuming that this is successful, proceed with installation of current JMRI test and production releases.

It's important to have enough memory and free hard disk space. We recommend you have at least 256 MB of memory for Windows 98, 512 MB of memory for Windows 2000 and 2 GB for the newer W7-W10 systems. Note that used PC hardware is available for very little money; it might be cheaper to buy a used computer than to update your existing one.

[MK]

I'm not a Win-anything expert, but I'm sort of with Pete. My direct experiences with the common Toshiba laptops of the vintage I suspect you are talking about (7-8 years old, maybe?) make me think it has neither enough horsepower nor memory to run Win10. Win7 might be OK-ish, although I have to wonder if layering Java on top of that to run the JMRI suite will bring it to its knees.

^ This.

Note that used PC hardware is available for very little money; it might be cheaper to buy a used computer than to update your existing one.

^ And that.

[Mark5]

Windows 10 is even more bloated than predecessors and could bring some older PCs to their knees.

Windows 7 might be a viable option if no XP compatibility exists.

[BCR751]

Thanks guys for all of the info and suggestions. We have been talking about possibly purchasing a more 'modern' laptop anyway so I'm thinking, given all of the issues mentioned, we may just as well bit the bullet and spring for a new one.  My other half says she doesn't mine if I install JMRI/Decoder Pro on it so I'm good to go

Doug

[John]

Before you spend money though -- see if the old laptop will work .. you never know ..

[greenwizard88]

Personally, I'd suggest using a Raspberry Pi. It's a $35 computer. I leave mine running 24/7 as a WiThrottle server, and connect to it via remote desktop.

[conrad]

Personally, I'd suggest using a Raspberry Pi. It's a $35 computer. I leave mine running 24/7 as a WiThrottle server, and connect to it via remote desktop.

Yes, that's what I do:  Pi on 24/7 driving an Arduino Uno with motor shield.  Thus a JMRI computer with DCC++ command station all for around $100.   Plus I use my $15 Tracfone for Engine Driver.  Setup has been running continuous for 2 1/2 years.

DCC on the  cheap!

Conrad

[Dottney]

I just upgraded an old Dell laptop to Linux Mint 19.3 and loaded the latest JMRI, then connected to a DCC++ base. 
Old stuff works great with Mint.  I have a machine with Mint 17.x running JMRI also. I connect to both NCE and DCC++ systems (I like to tinker when I'm not building or operating). Linux gives new life to old machines and has gotten better with each distro.
Dave

[jdcolombo]

Re: using Raspberry Pi:  I did this, and while it is fine for running JMRI's WiThrottle as a server, it takes forever to load an ESU Loksound definition file via JMRI.  As in 2 minutes forever.  I finally switched to a couple-generations-old Core i5 machine with 16gb ram running Win 10, which is pretty snappy for loading sound decoder definitions.   And while I admire folks who load Linux distros on machines and get everything working with JMRI, that's not a route I'd recommend to a first-time user.  If one is familiar with Linux, yes.  If not, it's sort of like telling a person who just needs a nice Honda Civic to get around town to buy a kit car built on a VW bug chassis instead.

My advice: if you're going to be using JMRI for doing decoder programming, and IF you have (or think you'll acquire) more than one sound decoder that you will want to program (particularly ones from ESU), get a refurbished one-generation-old Windows machine.   You want a machine that can run the latest version of Java and JMRI to get the most updated decoder definitions, and you'll want something that will load the interface in a few seconds, rather than minutes.  You can find used laptops with 14 or 15" screens running Windows 10 with an Intel Core i5 processor and 16gb of memory (the minimum, IMHO, for relatively snappy performance) for under $300.  Do a search on NewEgg for refurbished laptops meeting these specifications and you'll find at least 9 choices.

John C.

[nickelplate759]

I do computer performance for a living.   Old computers can perform well, but you need to keep a few things in mind.  If a machine is REALLY slow, there's a good chance that the CPU is spending much of its time waiting for memory or storage access.

1. Memory is much faster than storage (hard drive or SSD). Don't cheap out on memory.
2. SSDs are faster than spinning hard drives - and also more reliable - but SSDs aren't all that cheap.
3. For many casual tasks, 4 cores is plenty.

If your system runs really slow when you use it, there's a good chance that it doesn't have enough memory for the task you are asking it to do.  John recommends 16GB - that's plenty for almost anything you'd do at home.

Both Windows and Linux (and I'm sure MacOS) have simple tools that will let you check if memory size is affecting performance.   Look for page faults, especially read faults.   While everything is running you want to see very low numbers of read faults.    Task Manager on Windows or vmstat on Linux will give you this information - but you must check while you are running your task.   Essentially a page fault turns a memory access into a hard drive access, and hard drives are much, much slower than memory.

If your computer is slow to boot, or slow to start a new program, then your storage performance may also be an issue.     Decent SSDs are far more expensive then spinning hard drives, but also WAY faster.  I replaced the hard drive with an SSD in an old desktop that was way too slow, and boot time went from several minutes to about 20 seconds.