Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread

[u18b]

Thank you for your kind words, fellas.

[u18b]

Making the Grade

The Western Maryland Shay operated in the late 40s on a 3.5 mile shortline purchased by the Western Maryland called the Chaffee Branch.

This was a coal mine run.  The Shay would pull up to 11 empties up a 3%-5% grade to a little yard.  From there, it broke up the train and carried only 6 cars up and down a grade that averaged 6.5% and reached a whopping 9.1% at one point.

This grade was the very reason this locomotive was purchased from Lima.

I wanted to see how this brass Shay would do as far as curves and grades using my Kato Unitrak (actually most of it belongs to @chessie system fan - he just let’s me use it)

Using flat track, the Shay had no trouble negotiating 12” curves and even made it through the one piece of 9” curve I had- but that was probably the limit since the truck sideframes were about to hit the ladders.

But I was most interested in the grade.

I started out with the old standard Kato Viaduct set.  The piers are numbered 1 to 5 (the low strange one with stairs has no number so I call it 0.5).  At level 5 the track is about 2 1/8 inches higher. 

I laid out the Viaduct with 12” curves using the stock Kato piers in order.   The stock grade produces a 2.125” rise over 43.5” (using a string to measure the length of curved track).

The math says that this is just under a 5% grade  (4.8%).  The Shay made it up with no problem- even pulling 11 hoppers.

I then changed the Kato piers on one side.  Instead of going by the standard order of  0.5-1-2-3-4-5…
I used   0.5 - 3 – 5.

The new distance to get up to the 5 level (2.125” rise) was 27.5”.
Thus the new grade was almost a whopping 8%  (7.7%) - which is in the direction of the prototype!

I’m going to use the rounded numbers from here on out:  a 5% grade and an 8% grade.


So here is my little test layout.

     

And here are the grades.  Blue is the stock configuration.   Red is the steep grade.

           


And overall, the Shay performed well and handled the grades.  I was amazed!


Here is the Shay pulling 10 cars up a 5% grade.  No problem.

         


Of course the challenge is the 8% grade- and do it PUSHING cars uphill, just like on the prototype.

The brass Shay will easily push itself and a few cars uphill…. But would it make the prototypical max of 6?

Not at first.  It could push 4, but 5 and 6 induced slipping.

Here is six.  This is about where some slipping starts.

         


Now, overall, this was a very successful test in that the Shay can push itself and at least some cars up an 8% grade  on a  12” radius curve!  

To me, that’s pretty amazing.

But can it do better?

[nickelplate759]

I see that your shay (shays, really - there seem to be two in the pictures) are pulling/pushing LOADS up the grade, rather than empties like the prototype.  Impressive!

[randgust]

I've been using Crystal-Kleer for insulating LED's in brass tube - when I'm doing headlights the brass tube does a great job of stopping light leaks as well as providing a surface for adhesives or solder.

If you use something like that you have the 'marginal' benefit that if by some awful thing the LED does blow out, you can get it back out of the tube as that crystal kleer stuff stays rubbery for decades and doesnt permanently adhere to the inside of the tube.   I started to use that stuff after a particularly nasty episode of putting tricolor LED's in brass signal heads and having one blow out.   Now I can just push the bad LED back out with a needle or something, rewire, and stuff it back in again.

And for those of you that lack the soldering skills of a brain surgeon (me), CMR products offers PRE-WIRED Pico LED's (1mm x .5mm size) in various colors.   I got a couple amber ones to do amber strobe lights in a custom build and managed to get them inserted in a .035 white styrene rod drilled out .020 and insert the LED edgewise up inside it.  Worked great.

I'm glad to see you pushing from behind with the smokebox up.   Smokebox down on a grade that steep would probably result in an exposed crown sheet over the firebox and a boiler explosion.   Shays's could easily handle about a 5% grade even nose-downhill but over that you better either have a locomotive designed for it or a blast zone on the hill.   You'll see Cass NEVER does nose-down on the 9% Whittaker or Bald Knob grades.   If this looks nuts on a model check out the actual Cass grades:
https://www.msrlha.org/track-guide.html

That whole double-worm thing on a Shay is just marvelous.  The Atlas Shay drive is darn good but when you get this one right, it's far better.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Uhh. Those hoppers are loads. Empty em out and you'll be fine

[mmagliaro]

It's a beauty, man!    Low speed and plenty of push.  To me, that counts as much as the cosmetics.

I have a question.  Do I see those LED magnet wires *exposed* underneath, in the photo showing the trucks?  Did you leave them that way, or am I not understanding the photos?  I wouldn't leave magnet wires exposed to the "elements" anywhere, even though they are up under the trucks where probably nobody can every touch them.  Maybe put a thin flat piece of something non-conductive, like styrene, as a protective "hatch" over them?

[R L Smith]

Outstanding.

Simply outstanding.

[u18b]

It's a beauty, man!    Low speed and plenty of push.  To me, that counts as much as the cosmetics.

I have a question.  Do I see those LED magnet wires *exposed* underneath, in the photo showing the trucks?  Did you leave them that way, or am I not understanding the photos?  I wouldn't leave magnet wires exposed to the "elements" anywhere, even though they are up under the trucks where probably nobody can every touch them.  Maybe put a thin flat piece of something non-conductive, like styrene, as a protective "hatch" over them?

Thanks Max.

Yes, they are currently exposed.  All of this has to be disassembled for painting one day.
When finished, I may add a cover as you suggest.
Thanks.

[u18b]

I've been using Crystal-Kleer for insulating LED's in brass tube - when I'm doing headlights the brass tube does a great job of stopping light leaks as well as providing a surface for adhesives or solder.

If you use something like that you have the 'marginal' benefit that if by some awful thing the LED does blow out, you can get it back out of the tube as that crystal kleer stuff stays rubbery for decades and doesnt permanently adhere to the inside of the tube.   I started to use that stuff after a particularly nasty episode of putting tricolor LED's in brass signal heads and having one blow out.   Now I can just push the bad LED back out with a needle or something, rewire, and stuff it back in again.

And for those of you that lack the soldering skills of a brain surgeon (me), CMR products offers PRE-WIRED Pico LED's (1mm x .5mm size) in various colors.   I got a couple amber ones to do amber strobe lights in a custom build and managed to get them inserted in a .035 white styrene rod drilled out .020 and insert the LED edgewise up inside it.  Worked great.

I'm glad to see you pushing from behind with the smokebox up.   Smokebox down on a grade that steep would probably result in an exposed crown sheet over the firebox and a boiler explosion.   Shays's could easily handle about a 5% grade even nose-downhill but over that you better either have a locomotive designed for it or a blast zone on the hill.   You'll see Cass NEVER does nose-down on the 9% Whittaker or Bald Knob grades.   If this looks nuts on a model check out the actual Cass grades:
https://www.msrlha.org/track-guide.html

That whole double-worm thing on a Shay is just marvelous.  The Atlas Shay drive is darn good but when you get this one right, it's far better.

Yeah.  The Shay was nose first, running backwards leading the 6 loaded cars coming down from the mine on that 9.1% grade.

At the switchback, it would be cars first for a short distance to the little yard.
Then the Shay would run around and get in the traditional lead position and ease 11 loaded cars down the rest of the way to the interchange yard (about a mile).   But the grades in that section are mostly 4%-3%.  It's 5% right at the yard and then tapers from there.

Now, uphill from the yard it averages 6.5%.

So there is one short spot uphill from the yard where the Shay is in the tail position easing the 6 loaded cars down a 7% grade.  That would match the scenario you describe.

[u18b]

I see that your shay (shays, really - there seem to be two in the pictures) are pulling/pushing LOADS up the grade, rather than empties like the prototype.  Impressive!

Haha.  Yes.   But this is just a test.    The day will come when I deal with the Atlas loads.
I doubt they weigh that much in only 6 cars- but now you have me curious.
I may weigh a car with and without the load.

[u18b]

Outstanding.

Simply outstanding.

Thanks R. L.

And there's more goodness to come!

[u18b]

Weighty Matters

I then started experimenting over several nights.

I’m going to summarize what was a lengthy process.

For example, I could easily  experiment and add lead weight on top of the Shay.  This obviously improved traction.




I then took the plunge and added all the weight I could, trying to conquer this huge grade.

I already had one weight in the nose  I made a long time ago.  I then proceeded to add six more weights.

The first weight I added was inside the tender.  Actually, I added two weights.  I removed the circuit board I had installed and the stock weight.

I then shaped two weights that would sit to the SIDES of the stock weight.



 

When the stock weight is replaced, the tender insides is now almost wall to wall lead.

Using a spare cab, I cast a weight out of 158 alloy for the upper cab roof.  It’s a bit lighter than lead, but I could pour it.





I shaped a lead weight in front of the firebox between the frame pieces.

    
 


Since the Shay cab is offset, I added a small lead weight in the cab on the right side under the engineer’s window.  (if I add an engineer, I’ll have to cut him off at the waist.)




I also did away with the worm cover I made previously, and made a new one out of lead.



 

By the way- lead is toxic- always wash your hands when handling.

The end result is that the Shay weight figure now look like this.  I have three Shays

Almost stock Shay #1          = 95 g
Shay #2 with sound            = 101 g
This resurrected Shay #3         = 135 g

(Aside- I confess the sound Shay was heavier than the Wiseman Shay since I had to remove weight to get the decoder in the firebox.  This was a pleasant surprise.)

And the best part was the the Shay’s balance point is somewhere between cylinder one and two.  Pretty much in the middle.  This was also a pleasant surprise.

So, at 135 grams, I am 40 grams heavier with an increase of 42% over the stock configuration.

This massive weight gain did help, but did not produce the dramatic results I was expecting.

That’s because I discovered  other variables    that make a big difference on a curved grade as well.

The combination that proved best was:

 --Tender truck sprung and free to pivot a SMALL amount.       On flat track, I’ve had some success locking the tender truck down, but it seems to do better  with a little pivot on this huge grade on a tight curve.

 --Shorter couplers.       I removed the very long and floppy 1016 couplers from the Shay  (even though the Shay had long couplers) and installed the shorter and stiffer 1023s.

 --Body mount shorter 1023 couplers on the hopper      connected to the Shay.  I knew that pushing hoppers with truck mounted couplers would risk pivoting the freight car truck….. but I did not anticipate a significant loss of traction on the loco as well.

  Balanced Tender.      Not only does the tender need to be balanced within  itself (that’s why the weights are centered over the truck), but the drawbar interface needs to be just right.  If the boiler “pushes down” at the drawbar… then the equal and opposite force (thank you Mr. Newton) is that the tender is slightly lifting the boiler- thus reducing wheel adhesion under the cab.

So adding weight AND making the four changes above improved traction.

[randgust]

When it does come time to 'paint' this baby, highly recommend neolube.   No, it won't stick forever and wears off annoyingly easy, but you can darn near dip stuff in it without causing a problem.   You can liberally put it anyplace like shafts and gears and cranks and rods, where it touches and rubs its a lubricant, where it's not, it paint.  If you wear it off, put more on.   

http://www.randgust.com/Shay603.jpg

The other thing is that on anything of this quality, I really recommend you go with a grimy black rather than a 'steam locomotive black', if for no other reason that to be able to see all that wonderful detail you've done.   My shay above was done that way.  After finishing my PRR L1, it was so darn dark I went back over it with a grimy black weathered wash, what an improvement, as the "DGLE green" looked like a museum piece, not a locomotive.

Edit:  The other 'real gift' on this project is that because it's actually been run at Cass, there's a lot of video on it.  The two spots where it gets really steep (Whittaker and Bald Knob) are usually inaccessible from normal tourist runs, you're on the train.   But I was first down there on a spring Railfan Weekend in 1977 and we did photo runbys everywhere, so look for those.    That was the memorable 'triple header' event where three Shays pushed about every car full of people they had up the Whittaker hill, and then managed to slide part way down it as soon as the car handbrakes were released.  Pucker time.    If I look around my office, I have three Cass shots on the wall taken at these railfan events, one of which won a photography contest locally.  So excuse the commercial!

[u18b]

Weighty Matters- part 2


So with all these changes, I got to six hoppers pushing up an 8% grade- but with occasional slipping.  So six is right      AT     the limit.

But I would not want to stay right at that limit because slipping causes excess wear on the wheels- which obviously cannot be replaced.

Here is a short test video of the Shay pushing 5 cars up an 8% grade.  I’m not able to see any slipping.

Aside from a little bit more noise from the strain (as you would expect) the only other anomaly I noticed was a bit of chugging when going downhill (uphill was very smooth).

This information is helpful for possible layout construction ideas and parameters in the future.

So from here, I have a couple of reasonable expectations and options.

1.  I could do a selective compression of grade (which we modelers do all the time anyway).  The high grade below the mine was 9.1 %.   I’m experimenting with about  8% (which is visually VERY dramatic).  I could construct a layout with a 6 or 7% grade for the high grade.

At this point, I would lean toward keeping the max at 7%

2.  I could do selective compression of expectations.  That is, 6 cars was the max to be pushed up the steep grade.  I could reduce that to 4 cars if I have to.  But this experience indicates 5 is doable and 6 may be possible on a 7% grade.

The railroad actually did such a unit reduction at times.   This huge Shay was the largest on the Chaffee Branch and the biggest Lima ever made.  But Chaffee had other Shays, and some of them could not push 6 cars.  In fact, the lightest little logging Shay they once had could only move about 2 cars at a time up that steep grade.    That’s a LOT of trips up and down this mountain!

Furthermore, hopper consists varied with conditions.  In wet wintry conditions, even the Big Six pushed fewer cars than 6.

3.  I could adapt to the layout space.   I have not planned the layout yet (beyond a few rough sketches) - though I have the space allocated.  I look forward to @chessie system fan coming over and us putting a scale plan to paper.

It may be that I would not even have room for a full switchback of a loco and 6 cars (about 20 inches).  If that were the case- and space limitation would only permit a train of, say, 4 cars…. Then I could go with the more dramatic 8% grade I’m testing now.


I do have a concern which will only be made known with time.
Given my experience with the wear of this Shay in general, I assume the wear on the worm up in the boiler might increase.   I found a replacement worm (which is great) but still have more details to document.

I should mention a reminder that I’m using the revised (later and stronger) lineshafts.  I don’t think the original and more delicate cast lineshafts could handle the torture this loco goes through.

So, this is what I’m hoping for:    A Chaffee Branch layout where this WM Shay can push 5  cars up a 7% grade consistently well.  If it slips, I’ll go with 4 cars.  If it can push all 6- that would be great (depending on how much room I have on the switchback on the layout.).

[u18b]

Correcting and Improving the Crankshaft- part 1

It’s amazing how your brain plays tricks on you.

My Shay #1 and #2 with sound have what I called trimmed counterweights on the crankshaft.

Here is a shot of the crankshaft from the Shay #1 Wiseman Shay.  Notice there are no counterweights.
I assumed (wrongly) that Wiseman had shaved them off for better clearance.

 

When I came across castings with counterweights, I wanted to add them to this model.

Here is a photo of a version 1 Shay as designed and released originally by OMI- loaned to me by a friend for evaluation.  Notice all three cylinders have full counterweights.

 


And that’s exactly what I installed in this new resurrected Shay earlier in this thread.

But somewhere along the way, while doing research in print and videos I concluded I was mistaken (and apparently so was OMI).

On the prototype, only cylinders #1 and #3 have counterweights.    Cylinder #2 does NOT have them.  And I never noticed before.

So I concluded my superdetailed Shay now had an error that must be corrected.

 

I therefore made the decision to rebuild my crankshaft and start all over.
(and now I’ll REALLY glad I made this modular so I could drop the crankshaft when desired.)

Going through my parts, I had some broken crankshaft pieces which would provide the part I needed.

 

So I removed one from its shaft and cleaned it up, drilled the hole for the 3/64” shaft, and placed it on the new crankshaft.

 


Now I turned my attention to the counterweights.

 

But I determined that since I was rebuilding this crankshaft from scratch, I would make a major improvement since the prototype has straps which hold the counterweights on.


For example, here is a Shay crankshaft with no counterweights.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Shay_crankshaft.jpg 


And here is the shaft with counterweights held by the steel straps.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/ShayLocomotiveEngine3320.JPG 

This might be a GREAT detail to add.

So I shined up the surfaces of the counterweight pieces for soldering.

 

I then cut some strips from 2 mil brass sheet ( .002”  ) using scissors.

 

I then soldered the straps in place.

It was VERY difficult to do… and the end result looked AWFUL.  Completely unacceptable.