Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread

[ChristianJDavis1]

Maybe this is a better way to show what I mean.
This is an 11" radius curve (not even 9 3/4"!)
I've intentionally left the coupling disconnected.


Now here is a close up shot of the same placement.  With your imagination, you can see if that rod were inserted in that socket, it would barely be in there.


In a more practical description, what brought this to my attention was repeatedly placing this loco on the tracks.  Even while holding everything straight, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get this loco on the tracks on the first try without the tender shaft coupling coming un-done.
You almost need a railer to force this joint to stay in alignment.

Not good.

This was actually the exact same problem I was trying to describe earlier, so I'm assuming it is something limited to the first-run units. I bent the drawbar a tiny bit to get it to line up correctly, but like you discovered, if it goes too far, then you run into other problems. I tried the washer like you described, which helps with the steps shorting. The short driveline problem, though, I am curious as to how you would go about it. I've heard a few different ideas, but it's always good to hear more.

[u18b]

Christian,

It's interesting that your experiences are the same as mine.  These are consistent findings and not one-off problems.

One of my first thoughts might be to mod the drawbar and bring the tender a little closer.
But that may not be possible.

Another option would be to lengthen the post on the line-shaft.   The socket is a 3-d piece and it would be hard to lengthen it and still look right.

But the tip of the post would be hidden inside the socket.  So it would not matter if it were a different color, for example, brass.

But adding length to the post would be hard.   You might be able to drill a small hole into it and solder an extension onto it.   That part is do-able, though delicate.

The real problem is that the part in question is very fragile- as you can see in the photo above.  The metal is very thin at the fork.  So drilling a #80-77 hole on the post end would be a challenge without damaging the fork or the u-joint pieces themselves.

[narrowminded]

This u-joint problem you guys are discussing might add support for the idea of remaking those parts with more length and hopefully a less flaky execution.  If there is one included in the bag of bits you're sending me, Ron, I'll give that a look. 

[ChristianJDavis1]

This u-joint problem you guys are discussing might add support for the idea of remaking those parts with more length and hopefully a less flaky execution.  If there is one included in the bag of bits you're sending me, Ron, I'll give that a look. 

If you were to make a lengthened u-join for this specific problem, I would be a willing customer. I'd rather have it done right than me butcher such a nice model.

[narrowminded]

If you were to make a lengthened u-join for this specific problem, I would be a willing customer.

I'll have to look at the part and see if it presents a viable method of machining.  I suspect it will.  BUT, lengthening it would take care of the problem in the lengthening direction but it would need to have sufficient travel in the opposite/ compressing direction to be sure it's not binding.  Let's see if it looks feasible and if so, give a hard look at the length to be sure it's covered, coming and going.

[u18b]

Mark,

I have an extra socket.  It has one damaged pin, but that won't hinder you.

I do not have a post on a fork as shown above.  Those appear to be on the first run.

I do have a post I'll send you, but it is on the barrel.  That would be a cinch for you to make.

Because the barrel is fatter. the matching fork is a little different.  I'll see if I have an extra.

[u18b]

We've had a bit of a delay in the progress of this thread because of the Corona virus.....

But I have been in an email discussion with Sandro Schaer in Europe.
I believe he has three WM Shays in the revised version (not Wiseman Shays).

He says all three of his have the same Sagami motor that I showed above from a version 1 Shay.
He also says his tend to run hot-  VERY hot.  He's confident he's gotten the kinks out of the mechanism and it runs smoothly.  So he's pretty certain the problem is with the motor itself, and not a bind in the drivetrain.

Spookshow got most of his info on this loco from me over the years- and clearly I may have been mistaken on a point or two.

Thus..... if anyone out there has a WM Shay that is clearly a version 2 Shay (directly from OMI in the recall) and can open it up and show use your motor/drive train configuration... it would help the cause!

Inquiring minds want to know.

My Shay has a Faulhaber motor, but that may be an additional improvement made by Wiseman- not original with OMI.

[mmagliaro]

That Sagami you showed in your photo looks like the old 10x13.  I know it well.  It was the smallest, weakest, and frankly, poorest of the Sagami motors.  My Black River Locomotive Works PRR E6 4-4-2, which a few years ago I reworked into a proper SP&S 4-4-2 on this forum, originally came with that motor.  It would run very hot, and would slow down horribly on hills.  I replaced it with a Faulhaber/gearhead way back then.  The 10mm Sagami motors were really not very good.  They were 3 pole, and were nothing like their slightly larger 12mm diameter brethren.   The 1013 and 1020 are to be avoided.  The 1220 and 1224 were really nice motors.

[wm3798]

Since the Shays were built to navigate steep climbs and tight radius curves, the drive shaft problem is an issue that needs a solution!  I have faith that our renowned team of engineers and craftsmen have it well in hand!

Lee

[u18b]

Been meaning to post this.
Was in an interesting and in some ways disappointing experiment.

One of my Shays had a poor drawbar.

After seeing a version 1 Shay and seeing that it was more closely coupled, I decided I would make a new drawbar- but make the holes closer together to bring the tender in tighter.

My current drawbar had holes about 7mm apart.
So I made a new drawbar with holes 5mm apart.

No good.  Derailed the trucks.

OK, made another at 6mm.

Here are the 5 and 6 mm experiments.



A sure enough.... the Shay still derailed at 6mm!  If it were going to work, I'd have to trim the line shaft post- and I just didn't want to do that.

So I made ONE more drawbar- almost the same size.  I was only able to fudge just under 7mm (let's call it 6.8mm   ).
Thus, as I said a couple of pages ago, it all depends on how sharp your curves are.  I'm running 11" in one spot and 15" elsewhere.  And those curves require about 7mm drawbar (given the size and position of my line shafts- your mileage may vary)

When I build my layout one day and have 19" curves, I may try again with the 6mm drawbar.

By the way, I made one mod.  The slot for the drawbar in the back of the cab is pretty wide and thus the drawbar can flop around a bit in there.
So I soldered a very thin phosphor bronze sheet on only the tender end.
On the cab end, I bent the thin plate a bit.   This will provide for more sure and constant electrical contact.

[u18b]

Covid 19 slowed this project down.

But low and behold, a package arrived this past week from ESU.
You will remember my first decoder died when something crazy happened in programming.

So.......
A second try.

Installed the replacement decoder.
And then.... (holding my breath)..... 

I programmed it.

And here are the results:  a little one and a half minute test.

[u18b]

I know as decoders change, this info will go out of date..... but here are the exact changes I made to the decoder.

First, let me say that this Shay is rather quiet compared to most steam locomotives.
I spent some time watching YouTube video of this loco running at Cass.
Like this one.  Notice how quiet it is.

/>
So.... here are the changes I made to the ESU Loksound v5 micro hardwired decoder.

ESU Micro v5 settings

Install the Soo Line Mikado file.   LokSound5 file #  S0574
found here:  http://projects.esu.eu/projectoverviews/18?type=steam&order=date


Changes:

Top Menu: TOOLS/LOAD CONTROL = Coreless (last)

Graphical Section:

DECODER/SOUND SETTINGS
Distance Chuff  max  255
Adjust at higher = 15
Min Distance = max 255

DECODER/SOUND SLOT SETTINGS

Sound Settings:
SV9 (cv163) = 4      whistle
SV12 (cv166) = 1   dynamo

Sound CV Settings:
1   loco      vol 76
         min 15
         max  134

2  loco      vol 60
         min 15
         max 102
3  Whistle      vol max
5  Coal shovel   vol 50
6  Air pump   vol 20
14  ash dump   vol 20
16 dynamo   vol 56
21   air horn   vol 0
23   grade crossing   vol 0
26   stoker      vol 20
27 air pump   vol 20

[ChristianJDavis1]

Looks like it runs well; makes me really want to get mine running. Well, it runs fine, but it has the driveshaft issue discussed earlier in this thread and I am eagerly awaiting any developments made on that end. Also waiting to see how you paint yours; looking at it makes me think it's going to be a nightmare, but maybe if I see someone else do it it will "click." Also, it looks like your rear coupler is a little low? If so, would an offset coupler work, or is it just the coupler on the caboose is too high?

[Chris333]

Safe to say you have the best running example!

I had a On30 Heisler that I put sound it. It sounded nothing like a Heisler...

[u18b]

Looks like it runs well; makes me really want to get mine running. Well, it runs fine, but it has the driveshaft issue discussed earlier in this thread and I am eagerly awaiting any developments made on that end. Also waiting to see how you paint yours; looking at it makes me think it's going to be a nightmare, but maybe if I see someone else do it it will "click." Also, it looks like your rear coupler is a little low? If so, would an offset coupler work, or is it just the coupler on the caboose is too high?

Yes, the coupler is just a little low.  I plan to place a washer between the tender and the truck to lift the whole tender a fraction.

But that caboose coupler is actually too high.  So the two don't really go together.  The caboose exaggerates the marginally low coupler.