Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread

[sschaer]

hello ron

i accidentally found this thread about the shay. excellent as usual ! really inspired me to take a lookt at my 3 v2 shays again. they all need some tinkering. haven't had the time to work on them since more than 2 years. oh well. time flies. i remember we had an email chat before covid.

i might consider sending all 3 locos so you could fix them

[u18b]

Hi Sandro,

You're in Spain if I remember correctly?  (Switzerland)

I'd be happy to chat with you about looking at them by messaging, but this thread is pretty thorough.  It would be a lot of reading, including things that did not work, but it might be helpful.

It has been my desire that this thread would be a vital resource for years to come for people who own these amazing (and frustrating) models.

[u18b]

Max,
Thank you for your diligence in your investigation.

I didn't take a video... but I just did the same sound test as before.

With wide open throttle, the peak sound was 50db.

The previous best was 54 db.

So your modded gear bested the new plastic gear.

3 db is about a 50% reduction in sound.

When I first started at 80db (yikes!!!!  ).... I never though I'd get close to the 40s- which is whisper territory.

[mmagliaro]

Max,
Thank you for your diligence in your investigation.

I didn't take a video... but I just did the same sound test as before.

With wide open throttle, the peak sound was 50db.

The previous best was 54 db.

So your modded gear bested the new plastic gear.

3 db is about a 50% reduction in sound.

When I first started at 80db (yikes!!!!  ).... I never though I'd get close to the 40s- which is whisper territory.

I am shocked!  I never thought brass-on-brass gears could ever be quieter than having a plastic gear in there as a "shock absorber".

So the question is, why?  Maybe just because the brass gear is an exact match in tooth shape to the others.  The dirty little truth, which we all know, is that even if the replacement gear is the correct module, there are subtle other things like pressure angle and tooth pitch, which we know are not exactly the same as the original.  It's close enough to work well, but maybe having perfectly matching teeth is giving the brass gear an edge.

Anyway, I'm glad it works and it's quiet!

[u18b]

Well.... I think that the well-tuned brass with matching SKEWED teeth makes the difference.

The plastic gears are not skewed.   I imagine the noise would be much lower if I had a good delrin gear that had skewed teeth.

[PiperguyUMD]

Hi Ron, Not sure if you’ve found all the reference photos you need, the the WMHS posted this one today. I’ve not seen it before and thought I would pass it along!

[u18b]

Hi Ron, Not sure if you’ve found all the reference photos you need, the the WMHS posted this one today. I’ve not seen it before and thought I would pass it along!

Wonderful.  Great find.   Thank you.

[u18b]

Well, these Shays have been sitting for a while.  Time to turn my attention to them again.

First thing I noticed about the sound equipped unit was that the decoder would stop fairly quickly.  Electrical pick-up diminishes over time with wheel wipers.  Thus I decided to add a power module.

Size matters, so it had to be small.  I read the dimensions on the one made by ESU and it is too large.

So, I bought a Run-N-Smooth PowerKeeper from Iowa Scaled Engineering.
https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/Run-N-Smooth/CKT-DCCSA

I soldered a black (negative) and a blue (positive) wire to the pads.



I then grounded myself by touching my metal cabinet to discharge any static electricity (repeatedly through this operation).  I then cut the shinkwrap off of the LokSound Micro v5.  I pulled the Next 18 board off in order to expose the pads better.   I followed the directions on the LokSound manual to identify the power pads.




Now, ESU paperwork is a bit inadequate (or at least outdated) because adding a non-ESU powerpack can kill this decoder.   It will work fine when running.  According to ESU, the  damage comes when you try to reprogram the decoder- the powerpack fries the decoder.  So I need to install a kind of kill switch so I can turn off the Powerkeeper when programming.
See this video:   

I measured the length I needed and soldered the black ground wire.  The Powerkeeper will sit up top in the cab roof area.   I wanted the blue positive wire to go past the decoder.  The kill switch will go on the positive side.



I installed a blue wire to the positive pad on the decoder- also running past the decoder.  Space is tight because of the NEXT plug.



I then installed a TCS 2-pin micro socket to the wires.  The idea is the power leaves the positive pad, goes to the socket and then to the powerkeeper.  But in this configuration, the power stops at the plug.  I need to jumper the socket pins for the electricity to continue.



Space is VERY tight inside the cavity of my Shay.  My first ry did not fit, so I routed the wires.  One on top….



….and one on bottom between components.




When the wires were all soldered, I wrapped the LokSound Micro and the Powerkeeper in Katpton tape.



The assembly was reinstalled in the Shay.  The PowerKeeper sits up top -up under the cab roof.   The kill switch is in the open space between the decoder and the back of the front truck.




The wires are a little longer so the socket can be folded away when finished.




For the jumper plug, I used a TCS 4-pin micro plug.  I removed the outer two pins.  The extra size gave me a little bit more to grasp when pulling the plug.

The inner pins were folded flat toward each other.  I then soldered the two pins together.




I installed the plug.  Without the shell installed, I gave everything a test.   I let the loco sit on the track for a minute to charge the capacitor to full.   The Shay ran excellently on first try.   The Powerkeeper was just what this loco needed.




Of course, I could not leave the kill plug with exposed electricity!  So I added a small drop of epoxy to insulate the pins.  When the epoxy dried, I added a little more.




Here is the kill plug installed.  When the shell is replaced, I’ll tuck it all back away from the wheels.



Well, there is honestly absolutely no more room left in this part of the locomotive.  Almost ever square millimeter is used.

Now, I just have to remember to pull the plug if I ever need to do more programming!   I think I will place an Armageddon warning in the box).

[peteski]

Nice stuffing job Ron!

What you call "power module" is nothing like the ESU keep-alive unit (which ESU calls "power pack, just to be different).  You have is what I call "stay-alive" unit.  Its capacitance is only 470 micro Farads, where the ESU unit has capacitance magnitudes larger than 470.

ESU keep-alive will keep the model running for over 1 second with no track power, while 470 micro Farad unit will supply power just for a fraction of a second.  But if it made appreciable difference in operation then that is all that matters.

Also, snce the "power keeper" (yet another name used by the manufacturer) has additional circuitry which limits the charging current, you might not even need to disconnect it during programming.

[u18b]

edited to correct errors- thanks

Hi Pete,
Actually, the ISE Powerkeeper has 940uF.  It has a capacitor on both sides.
https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/Run-N-Smooth/CKT-DCCSA

I discovered this product from a mention by someone on this board.

It is true that the capacitance is less than what is generally suggested (I think 2,000 uF), but at 940uF, I have not had the Shay die on me yet (when it does, that's a good bet it needs a thorough cleaning).

The ESU module has a third wire- which may have some kind of logic function.  I don't know all the ins and outs- but the idea is that in programming mode, the powered module is turned off to protect the decoder.   That's the extra circuitry in their module.
Obviously, that's a good thing.   Too bad they don't make one smaller for tight N scale needs.

As to the safety of this Powerkeeper, you may be right.
But I think I'll try not to chance it with a 100 buck decoder.   

[peteski]

Hi Pete,
Actually, the ISE Powerkeeper has almost 1 farad of power (940mF).  It has a capacitor on both sides.
https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/Run-N-Smooth/CKT-DCCSA

I discovered this product from a mention by someone on this board.

It is true that the capacitance is less than what is generally suggested (I think 2,000 mF), but at 940mF, I have not had the Shay die on me yet (when it does, that's a good bet it needs a thorough cleaning).

The ESU module has a third wire- which may have some kind of logic function.  I don't know all the ins and outs- but the idea is that in programming mode, the powered module is turned off to protect the decoder.   That's the extra circuitry in their module.
Obviously, that's a good thing.   Too bad they don't make one smaller for tight N scale needs.

As to the safety of this Powerkeeper, you may be right.
But I think I'll try not to chance it with a 100 buck decoder.   

No Ron, you have the multipliers confused.  First of  all, those caps are not mili but micro Farads.  The problem often is how the capacitance values are often written by folks not worried about the consequences.

Micro Farads is the most common way of indicating capacitance.  The correct way to show that is to use the "micro" symbol (as in µF).  Also note that Farads is represented by capital F.  But since "micro" character is not readily available on a QWERTY keyboard, accepted substitute is to use lower case "u". So "uF" is often used.  The specs on the Power Keeper website indicate its capacitance as 970 uF (which is acceptable). But then the craziness starts.  People also start using "mf" or "mfd" or even "MFD" to represent micro  Farads.  Lower case "m" implies milli, not micro multiplier.  And upper case "M" would mean Mega.  All wrong, and confusing. 

The tantalum caps used in that circuit are 740 µF, not 470 mF.  That can be verified by the capacitance code imprinted on them of "477"  That reads out as 47 plus 7 zeros in pico Farads.  470,000,000pF = 470 µF.  Two of them in parallel is 940 µF.  There are no 470 mF  tantalum caps out there.  If there were, they would be rather large physically.

I know this whole pF, nF, µF is a pain.

Yes, ESU Power Pack keep-alive does have a third, control lead. It gets connected to the appropriate logic level AUX output on the ESU decoder, and the decoder disables the Power Pack during programming on programming track (or uploading sound projects).  The reason ESU Power Pack is so large is because there are no capacitors which would have enough capacitance that are physically small enough to have the model powered for a second or more.

[u18b]

Thanks Pete.  Brain freeze.  All corrected.

My only point was in your previous post above, you noted only half the value of the whole unit (470uF).  I was merely (with horribly bad notation) pointing out it has twice that in total capacitance.

Thanks again.

[peteski]

I'm glad I was able to clarify things, and yes I did not know there was another capacitor on that circuit board.

Personally I'm quite afraid of very large capacitance tantalum caps as they have tendency to spontaneously combust, becoming a very hot flaming fireball.  But that is another subject all together, and since this is a brass model, it will not melt if that was to happen. 

[u18b]

I'm glad I was able to clarify things, and yes I did not know there was another capacitor on that circuit board.

Personally I'm quite afraid of very large capacitance tantalum caps as they have tendency to spontaneously combust, becoming a very hot flaming fireball.  But that is another subject all together, and since this is a brass model, it will not melt if that was to happen. 

LOL.
That's encouraging!   

[peteski]

If you are curious, check out https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=35869.0

Also start at this post, and read the subsequent posts.
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=43415.msg553360#msg553360