Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread

[Chris333]

Well, you wouldn't have a connecting rod going up and down there.

   oops!

[u18b]

Yes, there is a lot of stress on the part of the crankshaft that breaks.  Why? because the crankshaft only has 2 "main bearings". At least that is the term used for automotive engine crankshafts.  A 4-cylinder automotive engine can have either 3 or 5 main bearings supporting the crankshaft. The one with more main bearings is more stable of course.

This 3-cylinder crankshaft would be most stable with 4 main bearings, but it only has the ones on the ends. There is a lot of force from the driven gear applied to the off-center part that breaks.

There's actually room for one more in the gap between cylinder one and two.

[peteski]

There's actually room for one more in the gap between cylinder one and two.

If you could add a bearing in that location, that was not to sloppy, that would reduce the stress on the crankshaft.

[u18b]

Since I'm rebuilding Shay #1, I now had the chance to return a Shay to almost stock configuration.

I regretted earlier that I had not gotten a video of how awfully loud this thing can be.
Especially since I'm trying to document all I can about this loco for this thread.

Be braced!   

Some of you have a Shay that sounds like this.  Since I have handled 5 (owning 4)... this level of sound is extreme, but not that rare for these locos.

The only essential difference between these two Shays is the motor and the driveline configuration.
The stock motor is a tiny little Sagami can motor (probably 3 pole).
The new motor is a small coreless motor.
The worm bearings have been Beardenized by connecting the motor and worm shafts and eliminating the inner bearing.

Turn up your sound... if you dare.   

(you've been warned)

[mmagliaro]

I notice that the remotored version runs much slower at full throttle than the stock engine.  I presume this is just because the original Sagami has much higher RPM at 12v, which isn't surprising, as the smaller Sagamis were very fast at 12v and I don't think anyone really expected to ever use them at full voltage.  That is a really nice improvement.

[u18b]

I notice that the remotored version runs much slower at full throttle than the stock engine.  I presume this is just because the original Sagami has much higher RPM at 12v, which isn't surprising, as the smaller Sagamis were very fast at 12v and I don't think anyone really expected to ever use them at full voltage.  That is a really nice improvement.

Yes Max, you're exactly right.

The little 7mm coreless motor is rated at  11,000 rpms at 12 volts.   https://tramfabriek.nl/motors.html

 At 12 volts, the Shay runs about 7 smph.

I would assume the Sagami is 25,000 rpms and IIRC runs at about 17-20 smph-- which is close to the prototype.

The prototype ran 23 mph wide open no load flat track.    But to be honest, I can't imagine them running this Shay ever close to that fast for safety reasons.
Probably the only place they could open it up (if they wanted) was starting at the interchange yard on the Potomac River, grabbing 11 empties and pulling them up the relatively mild grade of 4%.

So in my imagination, I'm guessing the coreless motor actually gives a more prototypical speed and appearance.

By the way, the original poor design of the version 1 Shay (which had the worm in the cab truck) ran like a rocket at about 80 + smph- which of course looks stupid.  So as originally designed, the little Sagami would only be operating at probably 25% throttle or less and would thus have been much quieter (until it derailed    ).

In defense of this little Sagami motor, I have no idea of the condition of the bearings.  It's 30+ years old and who know how much it's been lubricated (if ever) in a loco that was obviously very neglected.  I've lubed it and it's made no difference. 

My new motor has been shipped from the UK.  Just waiting another week or so for it to arrive.

[u18b]

Nothing to see here.
Just documenting for posterity (and myself).

I had three of these little crankshaft locks and dropped one as an offering to the carpet gods.
 

I decided to measure one in case I ever needed to make another.

[u18b]

Rebuilt Shay #1- intro summary

Since Resurrected Shay #3 is waiting for a motor from the UK, I’ve been worked on Shay #1.

Remember, this is one I got from Wiseman.  It’s possible this was assembled from Overland  “seconds” parts from the parts bin which were less than perfect.

It took a lot to get it to this point- and I’m not entirely satisfied.  More on that later.



When I had it all running (which was a great feeling), some things were not just right.
For example, the front coupler was WAY too high.

I surmised the front pilot was not installed correctly.
The top of the I-beam should be at the level of the pilot.
I wish I had noticed this problem earlier.



I had already solder re-inforced, and so now had to cut away all that extra solder and get the pilot loose.
Clean it up.
And reposition.
I used heat sink forceps to try to keep the heat away from the front bolster.
You can see in this photo I have the pilot still positioned too low by just a bit.  When it is just right I’ll solder.



But there was another problem.  The stepped walkway above the air cylinder was also not installed properly.  It was too high on the front (right side of this photo).

It took a LOT of heat to get that thing loose (very high heat solder).  But I was able to get the front end loose and angle it back down properly. 

Here is the finished work- you can see the solder where it was and how much it needed to be lowered.

There is now a gap between the handrail and the pilot edge, but I’m not going to worry about it.



Now, to move that walkway (pink), I had to move a LOT of other stuff beforehand- and put it back.

The air tank with piping – green
the steam pipe – blue
and the air pump.- red

But it all looks better now.



I was very pleased with the way the cab was mating to the frame pieces.
There was no gap at all under the cab on the right side.



And only the tiniest inconsequential gap on the left.



This Shay had the old delicate original line shaft castings- which I didn’t want to use.  I wanted to use beefier new ones.
So all of them had to be replaced.
Here are the old ones- the 3-d detail shows these are original  (red). 

The new sleeves have no detail.




And here are the new ones installed (red).

I had to remove the journal caps (blue) to get the line shaft out.  It was delicate work.

[u18b]

Rebuilt Shay #1- intro summary:  part 2

I had a loose boiler handrail stanchion.  The solder joint was no good on the inside at one spot in the middle.
I tried and tried to solder that spot but did not succeed.

I got solder in there a little and then tried to heat it all up at the detail to get the solder to melt onto it.
You can see the scorch marks.

But I simply could not get the very heavy casting hot enough without risking EVERY other part falling off.  The boiler casting is very thick and it would take a LOT of heat to melt the solder.

I finally quit.   The handrail itself will hold that one stanchion in place.  What I can also do is AFTER the loco is painted, I could add some superglue to that spot inside the boiler.
(I don't want to do it before painting because after I sandblast the parts, I rinse them in lacquer thinner as a de-greaser.)




I rebuilt the crankshaft after the previous failure.
I was very pleased with how it turned out.

It now has the heavier lineshafts – blue.

I also soldered the main drive gear and middle rod bearing (green)  in place on the shaft (the counter weights are tight but loose enough to be re-positioned if needed.




I was especially pleased with how the counterweights and their bands turned out.  I made the bands much thinner and more even this time.  Blue. 

I also noticed that the counterweight castings were slightly flared open at the sprue.  So when I cut the sprue out, I pinched the counterweights together slightly (red).

Not too much, but just enough to keep the spinning edges away from the crankshaft bearing wall and cylinder housing edges.

[u18b]

Resurrected Shay #3- the Last Details (I think)

I thought I was finished with the resurrected Shay except for the loose end of the gears still to be addressed (waiting on some gears from Poland).

But then I discovered a manufacturer error on the tender.

I was looking at a vintage photo of the Big Six and I noticed the open hatch on the water tender.  In particular, I noticed the orientation of the hinges and the handle- thus the direction it opened.   The hinge was in the back.

I checked the model and the hinge was in the front.   A very minor error, but an error non-the-less.




Since I had already done so much work on my tender, I didn’t want to ruin anything.

I had a scrap tender and so I removed the hatch on it as a test.  It is just one casting (and the hatch on this scrap shell is very poor and pitted).



So I now confidently reversed the hatch on Shay #3.




Using that dead/scrap tender from the junk pile got me to thinking about that roof vent/hatch on the cab.

I had a spare/junk cab, so I decided to do a test run of making the vent.

I used the resistance soldering station to remove the stock hatch. 





It is simply a curved piece of brass (about 15 mil).



I then carefully installed some square tubing in the roof.  I used what I had on hand. But I hit a problem.  The stuff I had on hand was too large.  The hatch did not look right (tad too small).   So I scratch built a new hatch and soldered it in place.

It looked good and seemed reasonably strong.




I then bought some 5/32” square brass tubing from K&S- which was the next size smaller from what I had on hand.       

So with fear and trepidation…..   
I took my superdetailed shell for Shay #3 and started cutting a hole in the roof (hoping I wouldn’t damage anything).



I tru-ed up the hole with mini files.



I cut off a piece of 5/32” tubing and test fit.



Trimmed the tube (rounded a bit at the bottom for easier insertion into the hole).



Shined it up for soldering.



And carefully soldered it in place in the roof.




I then used the stock OMI hatch and soldered it at an angle.
It was tricky to get it in an ideal position.  Also, I did not want the opening frame to get too hot and fall out.

Adding the control bar was the last thing.

I’m glad I added this hatch/vent.









And then there is one more detail I came across.   Looking at a photo of the plain left side, I noticed there is a large grab iron that should be above the window.



I assume this is to allow someone to be on the running board on the side of the boiler and then get to the cab door.

I drilled for and mounted .010” brass wire.



https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/25/medium_1277-010921105623-255701345.jpeg 


And with that, I think I can say that I’m finished super-detailing this Shay.

Next steps are to work on the gearing so that it doesn’t eat worms so badly.

And then to painting.

[Chris333]

You should show the soldering rig you use. I could un-solder those parts, but I think the rest of the locomotive would form a soup on the workbench 

[mmagliaro]

Nice, Ron!
Open cab roof hatches always add pop and drama to a steam loco, I think.  I spent extra time on my last two engines building the hatch open and I don't regret it.  Nice catch on that water hatch.  If you think about it, with the hinge on the wrong side, where it was, if you opened the hatch, it would flop over the front wall of the tender and probably break the hinges off eventually.  Now that it's fixed, it would just flop down on the tender deck.

[wazzou]

Ron, IMO, the cab vent is opened too much or too high.
I don’t have specs or corroborative photos, but in my own experience, I can’t recall them opening quite as much.
However, massive kudos for addressing the added detail.

[u18b]

Thanks Max and Bryan.

Bryan,  you may be right.
I did see a vintage photo with it pretty high.

But in more practical terms, it is really hard to place that hatch.
You grasp the hatch with resistance soldering tweezers.
Press foot pedal and heat up (2 seconds or so).
touch the hatch to the opening- make sure solder hot enough at opening to melt.
let off foot pedal- holding all for a couple of seconds to cool.

Check it out to see how it looks. 

It's probably off.  1 mm off doesn't sound like much, but you can tell- especially in photography.

So you re-do the whole thing.
What you see is the result of about 20 adjustments.

So I agree it's a little high.   I'll probably go back and try to lower it.

It occurs to me that the little support post may be my friend.
I was trying to get the angle of the hatch freehand first.  Then install the post.

But if I go back and lower the post, then I now have a little reference for the hatch. (bring the hatch down to the post).

[u18b]

Back to Shay #1:
Hmmmm.  A Problem?

Here’s the problem I’m debating to fix or leave alone.

It is minor and may not be noticeable to most people.
But when I look at this, I see the cylinder assembly is not perfectly square.



There’s a couple of subtle hints- red.

First, up top, you can see the line of the walkway does not perfectly match the cylinder tops.  Cylinder 1 has little gap and cylinder 3 has a larger gap.

Second, the rear lineshaft universal on the crankshaft is higher on the back (left) side and thus higher than the universal on the front edge of the truck.

Or put another way…. Notice the transition from crankshaft to truck in the front is even and level.  But the same is not true in the rear.  The truck universal joint appears lower and the lineshaft is angled upward to the crankshaft.



Now, admittedly, this view from the side is not that bad as seen in the photo above.

But I first noticed something was askew when working with the crankshaft from the bottom.
The rear post of the cylinder assembly (green) is touching the frame…. But the front is not (red).  The whole frame is twisted slightly.



I’ll have to make another post later to show why I think this is probably so very difficult to correct.

In short- the frame pieces involved are heavy brass and I'm afraid there may be no way to adjust/resolder them without the whole thing falling apart.