PRR D16sb research for a build

[narrowminded]

@randgust I just noticed something that you might like to try.  It may not matter but would you like a driveshaft with the visible center span reduced to make it less visible?  I doubt it would be very hard to do.    Let me know.

[randgust]

Right now, by the time I get everything done, the locomotive-tender distance will be just about right on with the prototype measurements.   I'd set it up that with with the 'temporary' drawbar and the NWSL shafting.   Surprisingly, it's working really well and is now in the 'if it works don't mess with it' category.   Once I get the front tender sill constructed it will close up even more.   The other thing I've found is at least one shot of my 1046 with cab curtains in the winter.   Huh. 

One odd feature I've noticed is that the locomotive and the tender both have steps, and the locomotive steps were attached to a 'beam' across the back of the firebox.   They were also oddly bent in some fashion.   Strasburg removed the locomotive steps on the 1223, but all the vintage shots I have show both steps in place.   I 'think' I can bend up GHQ tender steps to mimic the dual steps, maybe not.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr139s.jpg   shows the oddball steps
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223.jpg   shows 1223 doesn't have them

Shots to follow here, I have the domes on, the Belpaire firebox, and the turret fashioned.   The styrene Belpaire firebox was a fail, I decided to do it in brass instead and I'm glad I did.

The domes on this thing measured out almost exactly to the Lima sand and steam domes done by RLW, I had two left.   When I talked to Marshall, I asked who made those Lima domes he sells, and he said 'I did! - for the Shay'.   So if anybody else is looking at this, that's where the rounded domes come from, and get them while you can from Marshall. 

I've got all the parts and the auxiliaries solved now, this is the fun part to me, working slowly on the final detailing and seeing how close I can make this.   And for the 'standard railroad of the world' there's more than a few inconsistencies between locomotives here.  I've selected 1046 as the most likely one to have been hauling my father around to college commutes.

I have had fun with this, and got a whole new respect for the D16sb's on the locobase statistical power and tractive effort comparatives to other 4-4-0's.  I just knew when I rode behind it at Strasburg, it accelerated rather sharply with an authoritative bark out of the stack, didn't struggle on the hill, and sounded great.  But I was really hooked watching that doubleheader video.   

For those that bemoan it being stuffed and mounted, it was a painful decision by Strasburg.  Boiler was going to require a complete reconstruction after the new FRA safety standards came in, the same maximum pressure safety calculations that made the 1361 K4 boiler so suspect got virtually all similar Belpaire firebox PRR designs - they were right on the edge to begin with.  Better to preserve the only one remaining of its kind.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Interesting about the cab steps. Last night I was actually just looking very closely in that same area for my H3 to make a deck that I can position a crewman on but won't kill its ability to go around curves.

It has steps there too but they're not as substantial as those. They're basically a board, a casting, and a post hanging down.

[randgust]

More inexplicable idiosyncrasies in PRR:

I've already stumbled on the missing locomotive cab steps on the 1223 that it no longer has (right beside the tender steps) but as I'm detailing mine I noticed something else odd.   My 1046 photos clearly show that the 'signature' mini-walkway hanging under the cab, along with the grab rail on top of the cab, is not there.  At least not in 1937.   1223 certainly has it.   This is obviously so somebody can clean the outside cab windows by precariously hanging on to the handrail and about a 3" wide footbar just under the cab.

So, PRR guys, was this standard practice or not?  Really nice shot of 2082 and it's set up like mine, but without engine steps, but without walkway
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg

Same here:  http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg

Now look at 1223, under the cab edge and the handrail above the windows:  https://www.railpictures.net/photo/755299/

And she had them in service, and yes, they really stick out.   http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223sa.jpg

As I have a shot of 1046 more or less on it's last trip in 1937, I'm going without, but the more I work on this the more individual locomotive oddballs within the class I'm discovering on details.   

If you look at other classes like the L-1 the seem to be a standard feature, but I'm guessing a 'late steam' feature
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1487s.jpg

[randgust]

Well, it's finally starting to look like a locomotive.   I got past several things I had no real idea how I was going to do.   This is kind of a duplicate post but I'll add a little more detail here.

The brass Belpaire firebox replaced the styrene effort, soldered on.   

Cast metal domes on, RLW castings.    Tender sills on fabricated from styrene, with cast metal GHQ tender steps bent to PRR style, and an MT coupler on the rear.   Turret is brass tube, whistle is made but not installed, and I realized I had some GHQ pops....to be added.  The detail study on this thing has not only proven that PRR had lots of variation, but the one you pick may always be the oddball.   Even things like the placement of the air compressor is all over the place on the left side.

Shapeways printed pilot is on - from the Trix K4 details set, as well as the resin smokebox front that I figured out how to make press-in.  Engineering the headlight will be this week now, which is a lot more interesting because the locomotive is electrically dead - everything is in the tender so I've got to route wires up there as well as the LED.  I went to extra effort to make the boiler weight removable from the cab end, and the smokebox front removable, just to plan for the difficulty of that one.

The cast stack had to be shortened a foot, and the taper, fillet and rough stack mounting flange are today's effort, it's just perched on there for a test.  The vertical brake cylinder castings under the cab were robbed from an Atlas 2-6-0 left over from one of my other builds.   I'm still mystified were the injectors are as I haven't found them yet, in the cab?  The main reservoir is under the front of the boiler and I have to simulate that too.

I noticed the cab looks a little tilted, I didn't put the mounting screws in from under the running board and should have for the shot.  After all this tinkering I was almost afraid to reassemble everything and run it with a train, but it's still a quiet and smooth runner despite my tendency to muck things up as I 'improve' them.  I'll have to do a video here now to prove not only my concept but Mark's machining skills on the drivers.



Frankly, when I was hacking up the Bachmann frame with the precision of a chainsaw I had no idea how I'd get here, it's a true exercise in seat-of-the-pants engineering for each step forward.   It's not like I had this all figured out or anything!   I encourage just diving in and seeing where you end up.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

More inexplicable idiosyncrasies in PRR:

I've already stumbled on the missing locomotive cab steps on the 1223 that it no longer has (right beside the tender steps) but as I'm detailing mine I noticed something else odd.   My 1046 photos clearly show that the 'signature' mini-walkway hanging under the cab, along with the grab rail on top of the cab, is not there.  At least not in 1937.   1223 certainly has it.   This is obviously so somebody can clean the outside cab windows by precariously hanging on to the handrail and about a 3" wide footbar just under the cab.

So, PRR guys, was this standard practice or not?  Really nice shot of 2082 and it's set up like mine, but without engine steps, but without walkway
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg

Same here:  http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg

Now look at 1223, under the cab edge and the handrail above the windows:  https://www.railpictures.net/photo/755299/

And she had them in service, and yes, they really stick out.   http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1223sa.jpg

As I have a shot of 1046 more or less on it's last trip in 1937, I'm going without, but the more I work on this the more individual locomotive oddballs within the class I'm discovering on details.   

If you look at other classes like the L-1 the seem to be a standard feature, but I'm guessing a 'late steam' feature
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1487s.jpg

You're modeling the Standard Railroad of the World.

So of course there are plenty of differences!

I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with timing.

Keep in mind, 1223, as you see her, is a late 19th century locomotive at the end of a nearly 50 year service span. Most of her siblings disappeared 20 years earlier, so lacked the later modifications that she has.

Hell, even "7002" is quite a bit more backdated looking.

When you start looking, you'll go even crazier.

Try not to pay attention to the pipes coming from the sand dome, too, now that I mention them.

[randgust]

OK, some updates.

First, we have a smokebox front.   This was sawed off the resin copy of the 0-6-0 boiler, epoxied to a brass tube that fits the INTERIOR of the boiler tube so that it is a press-fit.  Then filed to shape to fit the outside diameter.  GMM handrail standoffs, number plate (mounted on a nail) and a cast brass Pyle headlight from Republic.

Bracket is scratchbuilt brass.   Now, drilling out the headlight and getting the golden-white LED in there just barely worked, but it did.   The wires on this thing get routed all the way back to a plug in the tender.



I pretty much finished up the chassis, and it's going to be painted first.   When it does get painted, a lot of detail on how this was done gets obliterated.  You can see how little is left of the original Bachmann 4-4-0 frame here (gray plastic), original Bachmann is now just the worm, a ground-off portion of the boiler, and the metal plate on the bottom.   Rivarossi cylinders, heavily modified.  Rivarossi drivers, Bachmann siderod with added depth; a spliced Bachmann + MRC main rod, MRC Berkshire crosshead and crosshead guide.   Lead truck frame Rivarossi with the the Petoski suggested metal wheels.   RP printed pilot, coupler, markers.   Scratch pilot deck, steps, cut lever, valve gear and main reservoir.  GMM brake shoes.



The amazing part to me is that it's dimensionally checking out against the drawing.  Getting the axle spacing right with the drivers as the key first issue on the whole deal so that it's not any more of a compromise than it has to be.

The boiler is moving along nicely, but lots more to do here.   At least it's my favorite part - wire detail, studying photos and seeing what I can add.   And I'll never get to the whistle-cord level of detail that Max has on his 0-6-0, but hopefully there's some inspiration here for others to think about taking something like this on when you REALLY have a particular locomotive you want.

[Cajonpassfan]

Randy, that is truly inspirational! But what a little Frankenstein; I wouldn’t think one could combine so many parts from different manufacturers, but you obviously did and can.Time to revisit my boxfuls of project parts...
Very nice work!
Otto

[randgust]

One of the last 'I really have no idea how to do this and never did it before' issues, but you just dive in anyway - is doing the air cooling coils on the engineer side.   They are very distinctive.   They have changed a bit, but you're basically into air piping all the way under the running board from the cylinder steam chest all the way to the back cab wall.   It looks to me like they were added with the modernization (electric headlights, etc.) so mine should have it.   Like most things though I've discovered that they were not all the same, and 1223 is not necessarily the same as mine.

But it still breaks down into four pipes above the driver ending up with two on the front end; very fine, figured they hang down about 24 inches.

There might be an etched brass part somewhere, but it still probably wouldn't exactly match.   So I'm trying to find a way to solder up wire to do it.

I started with an aluminum jig - absorbs heat, easy to drill, and solder won't stick to it....  I scribed it out and drilled it to thread the wire in.



I made the supports out of Details West .010 x .018 bar, and the air lines out of .010 phosphor bronze wire.   Soldering it was probably harder than I thought it would be, but I can still trim it up with a sharp Xacto to take some of the blobs out.



At least it came out straight and strong, and with heat sink clips on it I should be able to mount it OK.

[Chris333]

Max made some etched hangers for cooling pipes. Not sure if he has any left or not.

[wazzou]

How do you plan to do the turnbacks where the pipes change direction?

[randgust]

For unknown reasons, whereever the turnbacks were (way under the running board?) they certainly aren't visible like on a normal cooling coil.  See this shot.  It is interesting that the piping pattern here is not the same as on 1223, and it's also missing the footboards under the cab like 1046.

https://sites.google.com/site/prrd16steamlocomotives/_/rsrc/1472850271538/Home/PRR%20D16sb%201401%20Webshot.jpg?height=330&width=600

[mmagliaro]

Max made some etched hangers for cooling pipes. Not sure if he has any left or not.

I'm afraid those are all gone except for some slightly defective odds and ends (defective meaning the holes weren't completely etched through... and they can be made to work if you twirl the point of a #11 blade in each hole to open it up a tad... but it's a real pain).

I think Randy, that your jig is great and your cooling line array looks terrific.  I've done them like that, only on a block of wood (doesn't absorb heat so the soldering goes easier).  Your array is really accurate and straight.  I like it.

[randgust]

OK, so after a lot of trimming and bending, here's what I've got, hopefully the next shot will be when it is mounted under the running board.

[SkipGear]

After looking at a bunch of pictures of those things, I don't think they are cooling lines. They don't return like a radiator coil, The lines all seem to go some place. Different versions of the loco's have piping breaking off and leaving the group in different places so what you did is exactly right. They look like lines to power various appliances on the loco.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1401s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2082s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1035s.jpg