PRR D16sb research for a build

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Five year old me is bored to see the D16 AGAIN this weekend, since he loved 90.

But old me is beyond thrilled to see this coming together because he realizes how special 1223 was.

[randgust]

While I was always intrigued by the 1223, three things really have pushed it over the edge for me.    First was proving beyond a reasonable doubt that my father rode daily behind either 1046 or one of it sisters in 1926-28 and that a D16 ran right here until 1937.  Second was that in the late 80's, I finally got to ride behind 1223 before its retirement.   Two things immediately struck me; with a moderate-length train, it could REALLY accelerate, punched above its weight; i.e. obviously more horsepower than tractive effort.    Second was how sharp and loud the exhaust was, she really barked.    Those are the kind of things that a cold museum display can't show.     And finally, that excursion videotape with it running at speed with the 7002 - OMG.   It's one thing to putter along at 20mph, it's another thing to see them running at 60 or so on the Keystone Corridor.   

So I'm not sure if this is the 'best' 4-4-0 ever developed, but when you really look at the technical details, it might have been.   Pretty well evolved over time and not an obsolete design held over by accident.   You can't necessarily say that about all PRR steam classes and I'm not an SPF, but yeah, there's a special place for D16's with me.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

And finally, that excursion videotape with it running at speed with the 7002 - OMG.   It's one thing to putter along at 20mph, it's another thing to see them running at 60 or so on the Keystone Corridor.   

So I'm not sure if this is the 'best' 4-4-0 ever developed, but when you really look at the technical details, it might have been.   Pretty well evolved over time and not an obsolete design held over by accident.   You can't necessarily say that about all PRR steam classes and I'm not an SPF, but yeah, there's a special place for D16's with me.

This photo gives me chills: https://railpictures.net/photo/199287/

I remember chasing it with my dad. You can keep your superpower steam, give me these ladies any day. Simply wow.

For those of you unfamiliar with what we're talking about, enjoy.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Whoa. Hold the phone. You ever have one of those moments where your mind is blown?

I was just watching this:

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Holy crap. I REMEMBER that day even more now. I remember that CR TV train and being impressed.

Add that to my list of formative memories of why I love Big Blue.

[bbunge]

This photo gives me chills: https://railpictures.net/photo/199287/

I remember chasing it with my dad. You can keep your superpower steam, give me these ladies any day. Simply wow.

Perhaps Ed felt the steam excursion world shift on it's axis that very same afternoon when 14 of N&W's #611 23 cars left the rails injuring 150 people in the Great Dismal Swamp.  Even through the NS trip was self insured and an excursion for RR employees and families, the industry was never the same.  I think Kelly Anderson, now CMO for Strasburg, and if I remember correctly, fireman on 1223 this trip, said once over on RYPN it was clear to management as soon as they heard the news, their hope of running more mainline excursions were dashed and this trip would never be repeated.  That new pony truck looks great!

Bob

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Perhaps Ed felt the steam excursion world shift on it's axis that very same afternoon when 14 of N&W's #611 23 cars left the rails injuring 150 people in the Great Dismal Swamp.  Even through the NS trip was self insured and an excursion for RR employees and families, the industry was never the same.  I think Kelly Anderson, now CMO for Strasburg, and if I remember correctly, fireman on 1223 this trip, said once over on RYPN it was clear to management as soon as they heard the news, their hope of running more mainline excursions were dashed and this trip would never be repeated.  That new pony truck looks great!

Wow. Yeah. I never realized the incident was as bad as it was. Wow.

[Dave V]

Whoa. Hold the phone. You ever have one of those moments where your mind is blown?

I was just watching this:

/>
Holy crap. I REMEMBER that day even more now. I remember that CR TV train and being impressed.

Add that to my list of formative memories of why I love Big Blue.

I remember that too.  Sad I didn't see it in person, but we had the VHS tape that the Strasburg made of it.

I often re-watch this video even in my post-Pennsy life because, well...dammit, that's real American railroading.  It's downright pornographic.   

[randgust]

Update.   Mark still has my drivers for a better truing up job, but meanwhile I got a junker MRC berkshire frame and running gear for a set of single crosshead guides and crosshead.

This actually works.   Took some tweaking, still not done, but the general problems of crosshead travel, rod distance, alignment to the cylinder, all work.  It's just lightly pinned in place with .020 wire now to test it in running.   The rough boiler and cab are just for proportion, I have yet to cut that cab down to size.

It's not a perfect match to PRR but it's a heck of a lot closer than a double crosshead guide would look.

[mmagliaro]

Randy, probably not needed anymore, but there is somebody from Italy selling a few lots of original Rivarossi 4-6-2- parts: drivers, gears, and assorted mechanical parts.  These are brand new, never-used, which is pretty darn rare for old RR steam.  Just look for Rivarossi 110648.

[randgust]

OK, so Mark Graulty (narrowminded) did an exceptional job doing another set of drivers the 'right way', properly bored straight and turning the Bachmann steel axles to precisely fit.   She doesn't wobble a bit anymore, and also got the flanges turned.   Put the whole mechanism back together, and no doubt about it, we now have a winner.   This will work as mechanically good as anything I've got.

Cab is cut down, smokebox cut, things starting to move.

So now it's time to actually start thinking of this as a model.  With all the issues that brings.  I refused to think about any of these problems until I got the mechanism working right.  Lots of parts to track down.

While I've got the tender frame and trucks working the way I want, I keep looking for the magic bullet on the tender body.   Back to the locomotive I'm modeling here - 1046 - it looks to me (as a non PRR expert) that that is still the 'stock' tender class 55P55A.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg

   I do have a side drawing.   I was digging around on Shapeways and somebody has a nice N "H9" tender body out there with no class identification, but I don't think its the same tender.  Or maybe it is.

The D16 clearance diagram clearly identified the 'stock' tender as 55P55A :
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=D16sb-E48868.gif&sel=ste&sz=sm&fr=

against this listing:  http://www.wsbcos.com/tenders.htm   that doesn't even show up.

and back to this Shapeways print: https://www.shapeways.com/product/3K74LLPMW/pennsylvania-h9-2-8-0-tender-in-n-scale-with-z-sc?optionId=7763121&li=shops

That looks right, but is it?  C'mon PRR guys.   I've already looked up the clearance diagram on H9's/10's and they don't put a tender class on it, only the capacity, and it doesn't look the same.  Or maybe not.

Somewhat baffled.    I could scratch this body in brass and add rivet lines and may have to yet, but I'll exhaust any other options first.

It's comforting that the right tender truck sideframes and pilot are out there, which makes you search that miserable Shapeways marketplace that much harder.

[narrowminded]

I'm glad to hear they are working for you, Randy.   That job took way longer than it should have as the actual work is really not too much.  Problem was I had my machines down and put away making room for other household projects and it took some time until I could get them set up again.  Those household projects have also delayed my track and other projects and now I'm in Nevada on a six week cross country trek.  Retirement is hard work!  I'll be getting back on my own projects once this trip is over.

I'll be watching and enjoying the progress posts and if you run into any more of those stumbling blocks that really require some precision to accomplish the needed result don't hesitate to contact me.  I'm happy to help where I can.

[randgust]

OK, so the fun is really beginning on hunting down parts.  Still struggling with the tender.   I'd like it to be brass so I'm reviewing both the Shapeways options, etched brass sides from RLW, and about every RTR tender body out there.

The resin cab  - which is a resin copy of the Trix 0-6-0 cab, was about a foot too long and a foot too high, surprisingly, the cab roof is spot on.  I took it off the bottom and cut the front cab wall off and remounted it.   Still have to enlarge the windows a bit.

One of the next really hard parts is done.   I found out from my 2-6-0 project that you really, really want the running boards to be brass.   Like it or not, that's how a steam model is handled by real 1:1 fingers, so they want to be brass and soldered solid on the boiler shell.

The method I came up with is to drill supports under the running boards after marking them with a surface gauge scriber, drill .020 wire underneath in a couple spots, and use those horizontal support wires to align and hold the brass .010 boards.   Then solder them solidly from underneath either spot or beading.  If it gets a little chunky just grind it off later, as long as the joints are solid you're good.

I'm no purist, I mix media constantly, resin, brass, plastic, whatever is handy but I'll go for weight whenever I can and strength wherever I can as well, so the basic boiler is brass and I lean that way on the tender shell too.   I used to do shells and parts a lot in styrene but when you get below .020 the long-term strength is an issue.   Brass isn't that much harder to use, really, and now that you can get the Archer rivets you can do it right.    Other than some selected parts I'm not too keen on RP, it's so darn brittle.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the little detail that the position of 1223 in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is where it's easily viewed from the viewing catwalk, so the number of published overhead photos was numerous to get some otherwise unobtainable details.

[mmagliaro]

I don't think that H9 tender is "typical" for a D16 class.  It looks too long.  The PRR 4-4-0 lived a very long life and you'll find photos of them with many different tenders, especially in the 1930s and later for the ones that hung on that long.  But if you're after the original "stock" tender they were built with, we need a drawing of the 55P55a.

I have two ideas.
1. There were some feature articles on them published in Trains and other magazines over the years.  One was in the Aug 1954 issue of Trains (I don't have it).  Maybe if somebody here has it, they can look and see if there was a drawing.
2. Maybe you could phone the folks at Strasburg and ask?  Perhaps they have a drawing they'll send you for a fee.

Since you said you had a side drawing, I assume you have the one that's in the Kalmbach locomotive cylclopedia.  But if not, there is one in there and you can at least get the correct length, wheelbase, height from that.  There is also a really excellent straight-on side photo of a D16 (#1223) taken in 1937 with what looks like the original tender.

[PiperguyUMD]

@randgust I got you message about the tender print. That was a looooong time ago, and I don't  remember the specs off of the top of my head. I have some down time Wednesday evening that I can find the drawings and check for you. If it helps, the drawings I used were from the H9 drawings in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia steam locomotives.

[randgust]

Thanks.   Well, I dug around in my legacy collection of steam stuff (and that's a LOT OF STUFF) looking for an air pump I was sure I had and found I still have most of an RLW etched tender side that I just might be able to work.   I just thought I had remaining scraps, not two intact sides.   I have the MR drawings, so I know I need a basic tender side about 24' 6" by 6'6" above the frame.    The rivet lines aren't perfect, and I'll have to 'stretch' the back somewhat, but I was surprised I a) had it  b) could get 6'6 out of the side if I was really creative.   This is the RGS20 brass sheet.   I've used this brass material for my Climax B and my Shay tanks, and it came out really well.   Most times the Nn3 tank sides are just too low, but in this case they are spaced far apart enough I'll be able to use that material to make them taller and just maybe add some more rivet lines.

Also found a really nice GHQ C-16 08 single air pump, wow, nice, I'll use that.  I was hoping I still had one.

Now, just to prove I'm actually doing something here other than posting, here's the basic boiler now, running boards on, cab fitted but not finished, smokebox cut loose (will have to the filed to fit) and the GHQ air pump with the hole bored for it in the running board....  The styrene Belpaire top is just loose for now, still looks 'high' to me, other than length it's not sure of precise dimensions other than looking in photos.  Needs more sanding.



Now, on the running gear, here's the Rivarossi wheels Mark turned and trued, the massively whacked Bachmann frame, and the NKP Berk crosshead, shortened main rod, and thickened Bachmann side rod (I tried attaching .010x.020 and it worked, amazing).   And the Peteski lead truck, which has yet to derail and looks so much better.