Micro-trains 12 car Fast Mail

[thomasjmdavis]

What power was typically used to pull this train?

I'll do my best here
The short answer would be- almost any ATSF passenger power available.
The Fast Mail ran from 1915 to 1967, so "when?" is a big part of the answer.  Also "where?" 
Briefly (and to the best of my knowledge- open to corrections)....
Early steam years- probably the biggest available Pacific (some ATSF Pacifics were made in brass, once upon a time)

Later steam years (until circa 1951 or 52 on the Fast Mail overlapping early use of Fs and PAs with some steam still  in use until 1953 in Chicago and a couple years later west of KC)- east of Kansas City (or east of Newton?) probably a 3450 or 3460 class Hudson (also available in brass, once upon a time).  West of Kansas City (or Newton) a 4-8-4.  The clearances and weight ratings of some of the bridges in Illinois could not accommodate the 4-8-4s (or so I have read- when they brought them to Chicago to show them off, they came in on non-ATSF tracks), so they did not run through to Chicago. The last steam engine in passenger use at Dearborn was Aug 1, 1953- but the train not identified (a Pacific #3435 per Lloyd Stagner-Santa Fe in Color vol 1).

The Fast Mail was the bottom of the chart of transcon trains to draw diesels - so in the 1940s the diesels generally went to the streamliners.  In the 50s and into the 60s, the locomotives most associated with the Fast Mail were the PAs.  However, there is lots of evidence of F units in use from time to time.  And IIRC even Es may have occasionally drawn an assignment between Chicago and Kansas City (E units were not used over the mountains in the west after the late 40s when F units and PAs- which had better traction- became available).  I don't think the U28CGs ever got the assignment, and the train was no longer running by the time F45s and FP45s and U30CGs were on the scene.  Also worth noting that ATSF had steam generators on the B units of F7 freight sets 254-258 (another source lists 254-266, but only one B unit per set with SG), and those drew occasional passenger assignments.  The Fast Mail would be a "logical possibility" for those units.

[thomasjmdavis]

@Point353....I think you may have the world's best online photo collection.

[Point353]

On another forum, there is a photo from the late 1940s of the Fast Mail being hauled by the 163LABC, a four-unit set of FT locos in the silver and red warbonnet scheme.
This would have been from the group of FT's that, for a brief period of time, were converted from freight to passenger use.

About 15 years ago, Micro-Trains produced a pair of Santa Fe FT A-B sets in the silver and red warbonnet scheme - 992 00 101 and 992 00 102.
Since they are still making new FT models in various novelty paint schemes, sourcing mechanisms must not be an issue.
Now that the mail train car set has been announced, perhaps they should consider announcing a rerun of those FT loco sets by pre-order to determine if there would be sufficient interest.

[Cajonpassfan]

Yes, the passenger FT’s were relegated to the Fast Mail Express for a few years in the late forties as more F3’s and F7’s were becoming available for the hot Chief, Super Chief and El Capitan streamliners, before being returned to freight duty.
An interesting modeling period. Intermountain produced these as well.Btw, these FT’s were painted aluminum, not stainless.
Otto K.

[draskouasshat]

Too bad they didn't tool a Santa fe fishbelly baggage for this like i tried to get joe to do many many times. Id buy 3 sets just to fill out a fleet. It kinda sucks that we're still getting Santa fe foobies like this entire set. We can get random models of other roads but not something proper Santa fe when out of all of the railroads, you're more than likely to see a Santa fe baggage in east coast trains than any other road in transcontinental service.
I can't get myself to drop that kind of coin on foobies when the Santa fe cars were so unique.
@Shipsure we need fish belly baggage cars! 

Drasko

[thomasjmdavis]

Too bad they didn't tool a Santa fe fishbelly baggage for this like i tried to get joe to do many many times. Id buy 3 sets just to fill out a fleet. It kinda sucks that we're still getting Santa fe foobies like this entire set. We can get random models of other roads but not something proper Santa fe when out of all of the railroads, you're more than likely to see a Santa fe baggage in east coast trains than any other road in transcontinental service.
I can't get myself to drop that kind of coin on foobies when the Santa fe cars were so unique.
@Shipsure we need fish belly baggage cars! 

Drasko

I am both encouraged by MT producing this set, and disappointed that neither they, or any other major manufacturer, has taken up ATSF prottypes (see below). I think it is great for the RTR modeler who is not bothered by using stand ins, and just the fact that the first large passenger set done by MT is a mail train.  I figure the more head end equipment they sell, the more likely they are to be receptive to making more head end equipment, ATSF and otherwise.  But, unless a big check shows up in my mailbox (big enough to provide for a home rehab, a new car, and some left over for frivolous train purchases), I am not a likely customer for this myself, because my hobby budget for the foreseeable future is tied up in single-window coaches and a few more undecs for some M&R sides I still have in my "round tuit" list (so MT will get their share), working on a layout (and the room) in the basement, taking advantage of some of the products available from ATSF Models and Golden State Locomotive Works and my ongoing project to add decoders to all my locomotives (about 1/3 complete).

I keep hoping that Roberto will finally retire from his "day job" and get back to doing regular releases of his car sides.  I am willing to do the work.  Then I could buy this set, run it as foobies, and convert it over to more accurate models as time goes on.  But for the moment, it makes more sense to buy undecs to use as cores.  It certainly is easier to make a fair baggage or RPO "core kit" from the MT 60 and 70 foot cars than by chopping up old Rivarossi cars for cores and roofs.

I think we are still in the era of the foobie baggage car- that is to say, the market is willing to buy foobies- Kato is the only company that I can think of that tools injection molding for RR specific prototype head end cars- but only for identifiable name trains- the CN train they are doing has foobies, so it is "a transcontinental" train, and not the Supercontinental.  Granted, the MT, Con-cor, Atlas, Walthers-Railsmith, and Wheels of Time, not to mention the venerable Rivarossi, are all modeled from some particular prototype, but have been painted in almost every scheme imaginable.  WoT gets extra points on their 70' car for a variety of roof and door options to better approximate the car to the paint scheme, but they are also more than willing to fudge door size and spacing and other details.

What does bug me, from the point of view of someone with some background in business, is that Rivarossi proved, over the course of 50 years, that there is an N scale market for ATSF heavyweight cars.  There are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of ATSF diners, cafe-obs cars, and baggage cars out there (painted for both ATSF and in virtually every scheme imaginable, some literally fantasy).  To this day there are probably more ATSF coach-baggage rider cars produced than MT baggage cars.
Unfortunately, they did a one-off baggage car (although there are actually a number of similar cars rebuilt from various classes of diners, lounges and baggage-lounge cars).

Anyway, in spite of the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of ATSF cars done by Rivarossi, o date, NO manufacturer has taken advantage of the fact that THOUSANDS of N scale modelers already have a good part of an ATSF heavyweight train, and need ATSF CHAIR CARS and  ATSF "standard" baggage cars.  And  (if you are a major manufacturer with injection molding capabilities) for every diner in an "average" train, a customer is going to buy 3 or 4 coaches and several sleepers and baggage cars.  And Rivarossi made a LOT of diners.

[JoeD]

I agree about Rivarossi but you have to remember they came out with that stuff when there were thousands and thousands of customers.  Market has changed considerably since the Bush era market crash (no political slight intended here)  Picking cars, at least for me is like running through a minefield with everyone telling me they know the safe route, but they all have different directions    So, I have to look at what I can do to get the most bang for the buck.  Santa Fe proto baggage car with a fishbelly...sure, but what other roads had them or near sisters?  I'd have to look into it of course.  Most of our cars are based on a singular prototype beyond the pullmans and the RPO with the understanding they will quickly become foobs.  Everyone said do the NYC single window coach...ok...there are a few just like it but most are not in subtle ways...did I make the right choice? 

Not being snarky here at all, but if anyone thinks a Santa Fe fishbelly baggage can sell tens of thousands of units then I would encourage setting up a Go Fund Me as a group, approach manufacturers and have them produced.  Really.  I'm surprised this hasn't been done more honestly.  Seems a great way to address holes in the market and if you are correct, move towards making more.  I know what it costs us to produce tooling for a proto and assume China/Vietnam is going to be less.  It could work.  I've thought about this a lot and crowd funding would be a great way to get what you think the market needs, and if you don't reach your goal, no money is lost.  I think this would be a great group project on Railwire. Que the Cat Fight Audio Track  LOL

This is not to say when I do a combine it won't be a Santa Fe proto...

Happy Snooze Year 
Joe

[learmoia]

How prevalent was a fish belly heavyweight passenger car?

Was its use widespread enough to justify an alternative underframe mold insert?..

Or produce it as a 3d or etched metal detail part to give the 'look' of a fish belly car?

Seems to me like those baggage cars with a fish belly looking piece below the body would make these models convincing enough for most ATSF modelers..

~Ian

[wcfn100]

Otto Perry AT&SF Fast Mail Denver Public Library


Jason

[thomasjmdavis]

How prevalent was a fish belly heavyweight passenger car?

Was its use widespread enough to justify an alternative underframe mold insert?..

Or produce it as a 3d or etched metal detail part to give the 'look' of a fish belly car?

Seems to me like those baggage cars with a fish belly looking piece below the body would make these models convincing enough for most ATSF modelers..

~Ian

Fishbelly baggage car sides were produced by M&R.  I have one almost done and another to do.  When Roberto gets to making more, I will be in for several more (plus several of the later "Santa Fe sill" version).  ATSF had a couple hundred (anyone have an exact #?) 70' fishbelly baggage cars bought new in the early 1900s (some numbered in the 200s and 300s, and a big block 1585-1689).  The fishbelly cars originally had wood sides, later plated with steel. They also had fishbelly horse cars, RPOs and mail-baggage cars.  Many of the RPOs were first converted to mail-baggage, and later to baggage cars or mail storage cars, so there were large numbers of 60' cars as well.  Frisco also had some fishbelly baggage as well.  And NYC had fishbelly express reefers. 

I don't think just sticking a fishbelly part etching under a MT car would please the ATSF modelers. If it were a solution for me, I would have already made some up in resin (could make a master from an M&R etched part and a bit of styrene). Really, putting together an M&R side kit is not all that difficult- if they were readily available.   And you would end up with an accurate car with correct doors, etc.   

Now, if someone wanted to make up a resin body/roof kit, similar to the casting for the Hellgate B-60b, I am all in.  But lets get the doors and other details right and not do a half effort.

[thomasjmdavis]

This is not to say when I do a combine it won't be a Santa Fe proto...

Happy Snooze Year 
Joe

Well, I think you are committed.  Dropping a hint like that into a group about to go ballistic over the number of rivets on a fishbelly baggage car is potentially dangerous if you are even considering doing anything else.  But now you are setting yourself up for WHICH combine.  I would insist on a baggage-library-lounge as remodeled circa late 1940s for use on the Chief, but it looks like I already need to come up with about 50 grand to tool a baggage car shell....

Anyway,  I did want to say that, Santa Fe preferences aside, I do like your various head end offerings enough to have bought a bunch of them, 20 and counting, some used out of the box, some repainted, or modified a little, a few used as cores for M&R sides, and even one horse car that I cut the middle doors and am making into a 60' car (which is not exact, but much closer to the GTW prototype I wanted than the Atlas car).  But twice as many MT than any other brand heavyweight (with the possible exception of Rivarossi- I have lost count of how many of what car were used in which kitbash....

And do appreciate that you participate in this and other forums to discuss the design of the cars as you are choosing what to produce.  Even if we get grumpy sometimes or count rivets....

[Cajonpassfan]

...
And do appreciate that you participate in this and other forums to discuss the design of the cars as you are choosing what to produce.  Even if we get grumpy sometimes or count rivets....

This!
Thank you Joe.
Otto

[Point353]

This is not to say when I do a combine it won't be a Santa Fe proto...

Then again ...

[thomasjmdavis]

Then again ...

But then again....this one has a bar and the very attractive sill and SEAC air conditioning with all the interesting hatches and vents...


Edit: there is also 2544 (coach-baggage), last used in mixed train service (I think), and now at the Illinois Railway museum- I wonder how many the museum might sell at the gift shop.

[draskouasshat]

Then again ...

You keep that eastern trash out of here! Lol jk
Im not necessarily complaining as i have piles of MT heavyweights, even one if those ugly pennsy diners to kitbash with.
Im just adding some info that id bet they or the 70' baggage were one of the most interchanged if not the most interchanged Express cars in the country traveling from coast to coast.
Not to mention the last brass one went for well over $200 on the bay.
I fully understand the marketing portion and recouping your money but if you can sell a pennsy diner in other roads, I'm willing to bet that lipstick on a fishbelly would sell due to the unique look of the car alone.
I do appreciate the combine but they weren't nearly as prevalent as the chair cars, baggage cars and what not. You may see one combine but 3 or 4 express cars, complete trains of chair cars and what not.

I guess im just being that squeaky wheel that the prr guys have been the last 20 years. It gets old not getting Santa fe items that are remotely close. Dont take it wrong @Shipsure

Drasko