Concrete Tie strip for N Scale and Code 40 Rail

[reinhardtjh]

That's pretty cool.

One afterthought, does the staggered bridge cause any kind of offset in the ties on a curve?  Would there be a slight "stutter" in the curve of the rail?  Just curious due to the varying fulcrum the staggered bridges would provide.  I might be overthinking...

[narrowminded]

That's pretty cool.

One afterthought, does the staggered bridge cause any kind of offset in the ties on a curve?  Would there be a slight "stutter" in the curve of the rail?  Just curious due to the varying fulcrum the staggered bridges would provide.  I might be overthinking...

Many flex tracks have two ties joined and then one broken for the flex.  It works and the slight variations don't show.  Now, if you make a 2" radius, that will show, but...   We'll see how it goes. 

I'm not worried that it will work but want to see which style is the most installer friendly, single bridge as shown here or double bridged as shown previously and snip at the turns.   My own concern is that the single bridge will be harder to manage while getting it into position.

[Lemosteam]

Mark have you thought about adding tie spacers on the end shaped like a lollipop to interlock into a same shaped feature on the bottom of the last tie so one can stack many out in a row (symmetrical in both vertical planes)?

Essentially you could lay all f the ties for the layout, paint them, and lay pre weathered rails after.

[ednadolski]

And here's another update.  @ednadolski , here's your revised tie bed! I think it's final.

Looks really good!   I was just laying down an ~18" section of test track and I cut away *all* the tags on one side to see what that was like... yes, it was as tedious as it sounds, wouldn't want to do a whole layout like that 

I'm finding it is a bit tricky to put strips down into a smooth+consistent large radius curve or easement by hand.  Next time I will try laying down a styrene strip or some other kind of guide on one side.

I'm also thinking to ballast *after* installing the rails, since even with very careful gluing there still is a tendency for some of the small grains to get stuck in the guides.

Ed

[narrowminded]

Looks really good!   I was just laying down an ~18" section of test track and I cut away *all* the tags on one side to see what that was like... yes, it was as tedious as it sounds, wouldn't want to do a whole layout like that 

Fortunately, you will be the last one confronting that issue.   That's covered for all future versions whether double bridged or single bridged.  They are low enough and even the double bridged are low enough and, being nested directly under the rails, easily hidden by the ballast.  And if there's a spot where you want no ballast, track badly in need of maintenance, the bridge can be removed entirely after it has been laid and the glue cured.  Snipped out with a sprue nipper/ rail nipper. That will already have to be done if you're dropping feeders from the rail bottom instead of the side, at each point where the feeders drop directly off the bottom of the rail between two ties.  And the only reason I specify a sprue nipper when they look and work the same as a rail nipper is because a rail nipper may be too thick to fit between the ties.  Of course, either nipper could be ground thinner at the nose.

I'm finding it is a bit tricky to put strips down into a smooth+consistent large radius curve or easement by hand.  Next time I will try laying down a styrene strip or some other kind of guide on one side.

A guide butting to the end of the tie will always be good, especially with concrete ties, as they are very uniform in length and side to side position.  With the wood ties and their staggered end look that may not work so well. 

BUT, what I think you are experiencing is what I described from the start about the bed without rails being very floppy and hard to manage without the support of the bridges.  I have laid the very first version of this, some Nn3 track, with little trouble and is the source of my double bridge design and snipping recommendations for generating the curves.  And the double bridge design was a revision after I tried track with bridge pieces omitted, ready to curve.

With some of that double bridged test track that I sent, if you would try what I found to work for me I think you'll be surprised and will get a very satisfactory installation.  I used double bridged track and when it came to the corners I used nippers and snipped every other tie bridge, on the outside only.  This left all bridges on the inside intact and on the outside it left one bridge between two ties, then a snipped one, then the next two bridged, then one snipped, then two left joined, then the next snipped, and so on.  I made just one snip with the nippers leaving the snipped bridge piece in place as it was doing no harm, along for the ride.  Then, once generally placed and the radius reasonably set to my guide lines, as a final step to check and adjust the bed, I used a .040" styrene square inserted into the guides on the inside only, visibly checking for a smooth radius.  The styrene square afforded a good visual as well as mechanical aid, assuring a smooth radius.  As a final step you could also set it in on the outside if you want to be doubly sure but the nature of the design will have that side following the first side by default.  I found this method to be very manageable.

With the test pieces you have I will beg you, please try this method.  Yes, I know the bridges, specifically the height, bug you to no end, but the final product has that adjusted so will not be a future problem.    And a single snip with nippers on every other tie (not cutting them out completely with your exacto knife) is just hard to imagine as an issue especially when it makes the remaining steps so much easier to manage.   Even Mikey likes it!

I'm also thinking to ballast *after* installing the rails, since even with very careful gluing there still is a tendency for some of the small grains to get stuck in the guides.

I totally envisioned painting before to install the rails as an option but it hadn't occurred to me to ballast, too.   With the concrete ties and their need to have a little ballast on the tie tops you have a uniquely difficult ballasting job, getting just the right amount to lay on the tops without falling back into the space between.  What might be worth a try is to go ahead and ballast as you might do normal ties, not worrying about the ballast needed on the tie tops, and then, once that's completely cured, go back for a second round to top off the ballast with the rigid support of the already placed ballast on a surface aligned plane.  That might work well for the concrete ties.  If you try that, let us know how it went.

[narrowminded]

Well, it looks like we're going to have wood grain, too.   This was the only thing that was bugging me a bit after getting so many details worked out.  I had been thinking about how to get a decent look that would print and still photograph well and have been experimenting over the last few days.  I reached the point where I'm on to it, am sure it can be done, and will be spending some effort on that, flushing out the details.  Then it's on to completing all of the variations and then SWITCHES.   Another big lot of work.

These are terrible pictures, as usual, of the three test ties I've been working with.   The pics don't do this justice but this grain is looking pretty good!  I think a wash and weathering and it will really look good!  After this, I think I can call the appearance features and methods pretty much resolved and will get to flushing out the many variations.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[robert3985]

Well, it looks like we're going to have wood grain, too.   This was the only thing that was bugging me a bit after getting so many details worked out.  I had been thinking about how to get a decent look that would print and still photograph well and have been experimenting over the last few days.  I reached the point where I'm on to it, am sure it can be done, and will be spending some effort on that, flushing out the details.  Then it's on to completing all of the variations and then SWITCHES.   Another big lot of work.

These are terrible pictures, as usual, of the three test ties I've been working with.   The pics don't do this justice but this grain is looking pretty good!  I think a wash and weathering and it will really look good!  After this, I think I can call the appearance features and methods pretty much resolved and will get to flushing out the many variations.

Mark @narrowminded ....Hey, that's lookin' REALLY good!  The woodgrain was the last detail touch these needed!  Happy to see you've done such a great job on it!  Thought I'd include a photo of Rail-Craft C55 and their "wood grain".  Yours look exponentially better!

Photo (1) - Photo of old Rail-Craft C55 flex as a comparison to Mark's tie strip details with a coat of Krylon Camo Black:


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[ednadolski]

Wow, it prints that way with the woodgrain, very impressive! 

Ed

[ednadolski]

Yours look exponentially better!

Definitely!

Ed

[narrowminded]

Thanks all.  This has been a lot of work especially drilling down on all of the details.  That's ongoing and with real results.  One is the gluing.  I have made a third glue apply method work, stumbled on while brushing some short test pieces.  It really works well but now I have to go back at it to get a good spec/ ratio for thinning the glue.  I was experimenting, adjusting the mix by eye and how it acted so don't have a for sure defined ratio.  But once that's arrived upon, using a syringe for an accurate measure will make it a first time, every time, proposition.  It will be doable and repeatable and makes the gluing pretty darn easy.  A very neat, quick, and effective apply.  I'm loving it.  

My ME weathered rail arrived.  It looks pretty good and pretty black.   I don't know if I'll like that for all installations but it's certainly an easy option especially when not dealing with rail joiners and top of rail foot power feeders.  And the spring paper clip showed earlier works excellent as a handle to orient the rail for gluing and handling and to position it in the bed once glued.  And with the burrs in the clip "jaws" cleaned up it has a solid grip, is tucked under the rail foot in the rail's groove so is out of the way for gluing whether with the syringe, a brush, or the "new way", and all without marking the weathered rail finish!   That was a concern that I'm happy has been put to bed.  I will hope for the same with painted rail but I'm suspicious that will require a full paint cure, maybe a week or so, if that's to be.   I won't be surprised if it works or if it gets minor scratches.  Worst case, it may need some minor touchup once completed.  I'll take that.

The 1mm pen tip ground to a chisel point and using acrylic ink has proven controllable for tie plate painting.  It's tedious but with an optivisor it works surprisingly well and can be done on the bench before to lay.  At least that's good.  It's also not an etched in stone requirement that all of the tie plates must be painted but boy, once they're there, it's hard to just leave them in the tie color.

As far as the wood grain, I'm still putzing with it but now it's past the can it be done stage and into the realm of how strongly it should show, how deep the graining should be, and the like.  Naked eye could use a lot, closeup photographs could use less.  What's the balance?  I'll probably seek a consensus from the experts on this.   OK, not a consensus but at least some opinions.

I'm really enjoying this and it's making me really anxious to get started on turnouts.  I have to finish all of the machining fixture drawings so I'm ready to go when the shop time becomes available, anticipating the first or second week of February as of now.   It looks like 20 or so separate fixtures will get me started.  

[narrowminded]

Progress is being made.  I have been educating myself on the gory details of turnout design and the relationship between the many variables.  It's pretty cool once you get into it and start to understand those relationships and how one dimension effects many.  Setting the basic lead, point rail lengths, heel spread, how those two relate to each other, and then the resultant radius of the curved closure rail, and so on. 

The NMRA standards list has a decent principles and specifics write up of prototype as well as modeling compromises for turnouts (TN-12, 90 pages) and that publication was very helpful in getting a grasp on the whole relationship picture.  One of the things I've learned from this is the not completely intuitive benefit of code 40 rail when designed from scratch applying all of the design principles.  It affords a more gradual point rail transition which then allows for a shorter, more prototypical point rail length (11'), which then allows more space for the curved closure rail affording a measurably larger radius.  This  will make for a very smooth running turnout that starts with a less harsh transition angle at the point rail and then a shallower radius all of the way through the curved rail up to the frog.  The biggest factor that affords all of these follow on beneficial dimensions is the code 40 rail being much closer to prototype rail dimensions which then allows you to start with a smaller heel spread dimension.  Because the rest of the dimensions develop from there the resulting benefits are realized.  It's pretty cool.

Also, in order to take full advantage of these benefits it is all the more critical that all of the components are produced to precise tolerances.  Most of the component dimensions have multiple effects on other key dimensions and (in technical speak) it can all go to ***** in a hurry.

This is a layout picture of the key parts of a code 40 #6 turnout that demonstrates some of these benefits when compared to the NMRA design guidelines which are adjusted from prototypical to be useable all of the way up to code 80.  This is all utilizing the same lead controlling dimension as is recommended in the NMRA paper but all else designed specifically to the code 40 rail.  Starting at the switch rail, the length is a very prototypical 11 feet (per sample UP drawings and further confirmed in the NMRA technical paper TN-12 in the prototype description, not the adjusted modeling dimensions).  Because the heel spread is able to be reduced due to the more prototypical thinner rail head dimension, this length can be prototypical which is more than 5' shorter, while reducing the initial angle change by over 1/3 degree.  This is an improvement in both dimensions.  What follows is more space left in the lead (per NMRA spec) as well as from a shallower starting angle, so the closure rail radius is increased to 22.6" radius instead of the NMRA model adjusted recommended 18.9" radius.  This results in a C/L track radius for this #6 turnout through the closure curve of 22.4"+ vs: 18.75"+.  A radius increase of 3.65".   That's a LOT and can only help to have a smooth running train as well as forgiving in rolling stock that it can accommodate. 

This benefit will be reduced with code 55.  How much? I won't know until I actually draw one but a measurable amount of it will be used up due to the rail head dimension difference and all of the resulting adjustments required.  The assembly length as dictated by the lead dimension remains the same as the NMRA recommended dimension but there will be benefits as outlined as the train passes through this turnout that's specifically designed to the actual rail dimensions.

This knowledge as well as resulting specific dimensions that I knew would be coming with the designs was what was missing on my part when I was trying to jump ahead with my fixture designs that caused such a kerfuffle earlier in the thread.   It turns out that I probably will be good with one fixture for the point rails as the angles I'll need will fall within that needed for another standard prototype point rail dimension of 16.5'.  After that, should I need it, I may have to make another fixture and the angle will aggravate the already not so easy fixturing/ gripping problem.  But prototype drawings from the UP show a #20 turnout with only 16.5' point rails.   We'll see when the specifics are investigated.

Here's the general rail layout as described above.  The o'all length dimension was placed arbitrarily and will likely change but the key dimension, the lead length (3.544"), point of switch rail to theoretical frog point, is exactly per the NMRA spec.  As such it could be fit as an assembly anywhere that any other NMRA speced turnout would fit.  If executed as shown it is very accurate to the thousandth, fairly prototypical, and would run sweet!

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[narrowminded]

Still working on fixtures.  There's a lot of them.

[narrowminded]

For the full range of switches I'll be able to make, Code 40 and Code 55, it looks like there will be 34 or so different fixtures for machining and soldering frogs and point rails.  Those drawings are finally all done, cutters and material should be ordered tomorrow or Wednesday, and actual machining should commence next week.   I still have a few odd pieces to go. 

One is the throw bar.  I think I have it figured but need to make a few and see how they look and most importantly, confirm how well they work.  It will be hinged and I'm pretty sure I'll be able to have a pretty robust part while still maintaining a more prototypical appearance in both scale and style.  I almost have to have one together to really confirm the performance but it sure works sweet on paper!  

I'm starting with N Scale but will be doing Nn3, Z, and probably HOn30.  It's a matter of time and filling in the details.  It can also be prioritized by interest.   Anybody with a small project feeling frisky?

This is quite an undertaking but has been fun so far and due to the precision of the pieces should have outstanding performance while setting a new bar for turnout appearance.  The precision of all of the components is the key.  Mated with the tie bed this should make for a pretty outstanding installation.  It's my hope to have some turnouts for test and show sometime short of a month from now.  Track sooner, especially if the machine time suffers any delays.

[narrowminded]

Just a quick update.  Fixtures still in progress.  

Got some shop time but had to be interrupted by "real" work.   The mill I am using is in big demand at this shop.  I'm now looking at access in the 1st to 2nd week of March, hopefully to finish what I've got designed so far.  BTW, future one off needs and fixture maintenance can be done in my own machines but to make the volume of fixtures I'm doing to build a whole line, with all of the precise, small details, many at angles and radii, would be cruel and unusual punishment to a skilled worker.  There are presently 40 sets, mostly of rail positioning/ gripping clamps with precisely matching tops and bottoms to them, about 80 individual precise pieces to be machined with small, important angles, radii, and other details to all of them.  While doable, it would be an absolute nightmare to do this many in basic manual machines.  Also, not able to be accurately produced in just any typical CNC due to miniscule details and tiny cutters needed to produce them.  As I had previously mentioned, this is just the right combination of skills, circumstances, and access to some very expensive machines that are allowing this to happen.  If it hadn't fallen into place by happenstance it wouldn't be happening at all.

The delays are always frustrating but they have also had some benefit.  I was rushing some of this just a little based on that shop's schedule and that's never a perfect scenario.  There are always some issues with this intricate stuff that you think your design has covered (it worked great on paper) but you haven't actually run it yet so aren't absolutely sure and often there is at least some minor tweeking needed on something once this many new fixtures are put into service.  It's life in the machine world.

Due to the schedule delay I am using the opportunity to make a few prototype rail holders in my home machines where specific concerns existed and testing their performance.  Areas of concern often have "fixes" already in mind if the concerns prove to be an issue.  Having this extra time allowed me to take two of the rail gripping fixtures that had specific concerns (one that then effected the next step) and found that a tweek was in order.  Those few minor adjustments made in the design now will save the steps of re-setting up and modifying later.  In the end, these refinements discovered and fixed now may actually have the final production not delayed much if at all.   The old adage, "Never time to do it right, always time to do it over".

And there are still a few fixtures to be designed and machined but they were always planned to be done in my own manual machines.  Especially the bending fixture for kinking the rails as required.  Guardrails, the kink at the start of the radius stock rail, pre-bends in one direction then machining back to straight to prevent the total removal of the web support on frogs and closure rails, and the like.  These will all be precisely pre-machined so that fit and tolerance can be maintained and assembly proceeds as assembly only (yes, inspection as you go), not repeated fitting and filing until it looks OK.  That's fine for one offs and if the time to final fit or to get basically one that "works" takes an hour, who cares.  In this venture, it matters.  Precisely hand working every fit will drive a person NUTS if done in quantity.   And the precision of the components will assure a nice running turnout first time, every time.  Add some prototype details to the bed and WOW!  At least that's the plan.

Track additions have been placed on the back burner for the moment as they are largely figured out but all of the design variations need to be filled in.  That will be filler work as I go BUT... if anybody has any immediate needs or a particular version priority don't hesitate to send a PM.  I could respond pretty quickly if there was an immediate need. 

Wish me luck.   Pending access time I should have real things to show in a few weeks and over the next month and beyond.

[Maletrain]

Thanks for the update.  I am not turning blue, because I have learned not to hold my breath for ventures like this, but I am eager to see the results, when you get them done.  Good luck on keeping up the good work.