Concrete Tie strip for N Scale and Code 40 Rail

[ednadolski]

I also noticed looking at turnout drawings that the spacing varied throughout the turnout, some parts needed more support then others it seems...

Yes, ties are typically closer under the frog/guard rail areas.   I also notice that in some longer turnouts the spacing increases in the switch area to allow for additional throw rods between the point rails.  There is a lot of variety on the prototypes.

Ed

[wazzou]

Ive been doing some research on my chosen prototypes and it seems CP, Soo Line and Milwaukee Road all commonly used 8 foot 7x8 inch ties... I'm still trying to find drawings that show tie spacing and other details. It's amazing how much there is to learn about the subject and how little I actually knew...

I also noticed looking at turnout drawings that the spacing varied throughout the turnout, some parts needed more support then others it seems...

Like I said...

[Missaberoad]

Like I said...

Doh! 

I remember reading your message, in fact it's what spurred my research, but I must have glossed over the Canadian roads using 8' ties part!

[Missaberoad]

Ive been doing some research on my chosen prototypes and it seems CP, Soo Line and Milwaukee Road all commonly used 8 foot 7x8 inch ties...

Too add to this as far as I can tell Soo Line mainline track was 8 foot ties spaced at 22 inches...

[narrowminded]

Sounds good.  Do you apply adhesive to a full 3' length of rail? Seems that would need a few things:

 - A jig to hold the rail (or several rails) bottom-side up

Especially for reasons of expansion/ contraction as well as convenience of handling the rail, I lean to laying rail in 1' to 2' maximum rail lengths.  This is especially useful for modules or layouts that will travel, even more important when they will be moved in cold weather.  I realize that for many home layouts this won't be an issue but it also doesn't hurt. 

There are two fundamental differences that I see as big advantages when laying rail with this guided method, functionally and even better, cosmetically.  Typical flex track installations require rail joiners to align the rails as they are naturally trying to spring back to straight and will spring a little at the joint, introducing a small notch or kink if not aided by the joiners (and sometimes still have a minor issue even with the joiners).  Some even solder these individual joints to beef them up.  Then, at every joint where a joiner is used there has to be a several tie gap left to clear that joiner and finally, after completion of the track laying, individual ties have to be added back requiring sanding to be thin enough and then placed and glued under the joint.  The final result of this effort is a thinner tie, an oversized, non-prototypical joiner, and a weak link in the system. 

Because this tie bed has very accurate guides and then the rail is preformed to the curve, very accurate rail joints are accomplished and maintained without the use of joiners and all the fuss that goes with them.  No gauges to hold alignment, no need to sand ties and fill in the tie voids, and a continuous run of cosmetically uniform track complete with all the never before available details. 

This comes with a few different steps but not necessarily more work.  You add a few steps at different points in the process, lose a few like those just outlined with rail joiners, so the net effort, especially with experience, should not be terribly different with a much finer result.  And it should be way easier than hand laying track, again, with a cosmetically superior result.  Time and experience will tell.

As far as holding fixtures for glue apply to rails, I'll have more for folks on that with some pics but it's basically a homemade rig, still being finalized.  For straight rails, think of two strips of aluminum bar, 1/8" by 3/4" or 1", screwed down to a wood base with a few flat head screws (1" long?) in each.  Place the two pieces parallel on the base, butted to each other, and match drill the aluminum and the base for two or three screws per side, based on length of the fixture.  Clearance drill the holes in the aluminum strips.  You can but don't even have to countersink them.  In use, the rail head sits between the two aluminum strips leaving the foot shouldered and setting on the top of the clamp strips.  Lightly tightening the screws will work to both hold the aluminum strips down but also, because they were match drilled to the base with no clearance, the taper of the flathead screws will tend to push them in against the rail, adequately clamping the rail.  One side may be left tightened with the other serving as the clamping side.  I may also suggest using angle for the one side and making a washer to fit the syringe needle that will shoulder against the vertical side of the angle, the washer sized to place the needle over the center of the rail.  This will steady the tip and make the glue apply to the rail fast, centered, and so easy that even I can do it.

For already curved rails, they will not be trying to flop over on their side because of the bend so I will just use masking tape, sticky side up (taped down at two ends), as many as needed to stabilize, and stick the rail head down on them.  Just hand guided or I have an idea for another syringe needle guide that could be slipped on to the needle to steady the tip as you move along the rail.  That is yet to be made.


 

- A way to grip and handle the rail after applying adhesive to the bottom

This is something that is evolving.  All of the methods I've tried have worked well with varying degrees of ease but I think I've arrived at the simplest way if applying the glue to the rail, not the tie bed.  Applying to the rail only may prove to be the fastest way, and may ultimately be the recommendation.  It will surely be one of the options. 

Because you will be cutting and fitting the rail, you will know where it starts and ends, so will know the extents of the piece you're working with.  You can mark those two points so you know where the glue will be applied for this section.  If applying in a continuous bead to the rail, stop the application an inch or so from the end leaving a point to grip.  For that short distance, those few ties, carefully apply glue to those tie bed pockets.  Lay the rail in, done.   This is also where rails shorter than 3' will be easier to handle in every way with little or no reason not to lay them in shorter lengths than typical flex track.  At least for me, this is an area where that old standard approach, for all of the reasons it made sense working with flex track, can be chucked out the window.

Applying the glue to the guide pockets will always be an option but will require a pretty steady hand.  I have some syringes and tiny blunt needles on order that I suspect will make any dispensing step easier.  It may even make getting the right amount into the guide pocket easy but that's yet to be proven.  If so, that might be the preferred method.   This could easily get in to the area of installer preference, which method they're most comfortable with, not a right or wrong.  I will be adding to this as I go and will be a subject covered in a video.  But again, even with my inexperience the first trial methods have all worked well.

- Something to hold the rail in place while the adhesive cures.

Any ideas?  For the last one at least, my thought is some kind of small (steel or brass for the weight) cylinder or block with grooves in it to hold the rail down and in gauge.  Place one every couple of inches or so....

One feature of this is there's no need to hold the rail in gauge.  The close fitting guides do that really well.  One thing that is important, when starting the rail insertion, for the first tie that you're engaging, make sure that the rail foot is sitting squarely in the bottom of the pocket.  This isn't hard to do but if not paying specific attention to this, it's possible to roll the rail over at an angle and... that'll never work.

As far as weighting, it never hurts to weight but the initial grip of the Pliobond is pretty quick, almost instant.  It continues to grow in strength over a week or so as the solvent continues to escape but the initial grip and the first few minutes in place probably gets the job done.  What I have done when laying this is to first, holding the rail above the tie bed at about fifteen degrees, position the end of the rail in the first pocket, making sure it's engaged squarely with the rail foot (with a steel feeler gauge positioned at the butt end of the previous rail to set a gap) and then roughly align the rail with the rest of the run and slide your finger along the rail, seating it in each subsequent pocket.  This pretty much takes care of itself as you go as the ties are close enough that the rail will naturally drop in, sometimes hearing a little click as each one drops in.  Once in place you won't readily be able to move it as it has already gripped a bit.  Once in place I will take the side of a toothpick and slide it along the rail top, exerting decent downward pressure with that finger, making sure that the rail is fully seated.  A look at the end of the rail where it's seated in the guide pocket is a good idea, checking for the foot to be visually, squarely seated.  That's pretty much it.   Over the next minutes up to hours, at your convenience, an additional toothpick rub down the rail length won't hurt.

Once the next rail is in, especially if there is the slightest height variation (detected with a fingernail?), use the face of a flexible SS ruler (or equivalent) pressed down with your fingers over the joint, spanning both rails at the joint to assure their matched height alignment.  I haven't found that to be needed often but if an inspection suggests it, do it or maybe just make it a standard practice.  It can't hurt and might give some peace of mind that you're good to go.   

There is also a technique adopted from the decades of experience that hand laid track folks have with this glue, that the glue, freshly laid or years cured, can be quick cured, fixed, or adjusted with the heat of a soldering iron.  If any adjustments of this nature are needed, a regular electronics type soldering iron rubbed over several inches in the vicinity of the area you are wanting to adjust will soften and allow the glue to soften and adjust.  That can also be used to fix a joint that has popped (temp change?).  Just rub the heated iron over the spot, pushing down until it has seated, hold until cooled.

This will all be covered in videos and with even more detail than can be covered in this way.  It takes much longer to explain it than to actually do it.

[narrowminded]

An update for projects in progress:

Parts for a paint mask to allow for painting before laying the bed are made and the balance of the rig is in process.  It should be finished and tested this weekend.  I know it's going to work slick but I have yet to test it, seeing if it knows that it works.   This allows for painting the bed and then detailing the tie plates on the bench when you can position them at will and have ready access to them.  Dry brushing and weathering could also be done on the bench, or after laid, user preference.    Of course, there's nothing that says the user can't just paint their track the way they have always done it and nothing says you have to paint individual tie plates, either.  But now there are the details and the option to paint off the layout.

An assortment of new smaller syringes and blunt needles arrived today.  They should make glue applying pretty easy.  I've already done that with a syringe that was much larger but with a small (.020") hole and it was manageable.  I expect with a smaller syringe and needle this will be even easier, more precise.  Again, there will be experiments in the next few days and then report back. 

I also ordered some weathered ME Code 40 rail.  Until now I haven't used any nor seen any but feedback I've read on this is that the look is good but that making the solder feeder connections require scraping, exposing shiny metal, as well as the unsightly rail joiners that will still require some attention, making it a pain in the neck to use.  Because this install method is unaffected by these issues, the soldered feed joints being under the rail, out of sight, and no joiners needed, I think it's worth a look.  I may still prefer to paint the rail but this seems like it could be a viable option.  It will be a week or so until that arrives.  I'll report my findings.

[narrowminded]

Ive been doing some research on my chosen prototypes and it seems CP, Soo Line and Milwaukee Road all commonly used 8 foot 7x8 inch ties... I'm still trying to find drawings that show tie spacing and other details. It's amazing how much there is to learn about the subject and how little I actually knew...

It does seem that there should be an 8' tie length offered.  That would be in branch and siding track, I'm guessing, and not on mains.  Yes?

[narrowminded]

Here are some quick pics of progress.  The paint mask tool is done.  I took the pic to show how it was constructed but will add masking tape to the face before to use so that it can be changed as the paint builds up.  The styrene masking strips can also be removed to clean paint build up.  I expect that I will wipe them down every couple of uses, as needed, and certainly at the end of a paint session.  I expect to use acrylics like Model Masters, no solvent paints.  Solvent paints will not be able to be cleaned off and any excess buildup will pretty quickly have them not fitting down in the tie guides whereas acrylic can be cleaned off with an alcohol soaked paper towel, any strength, as long as it's done before the paint has fully cured ( a week or so?  I've got a couple of test pieces drying now).  The styrene masking strips can be replaced but it takes some wetting with acetone to get all of the styrene and CA out of the attachment pocket.

The arch in the frame and light elastic band tension keep the guides perfectly seated in the grooves and easy to load and unload the tie strips.  It also keeps them from blowing around in the paint booth.   The length can be built to hold two pieces of tie bed lengthwise and as many as you want in width so if you have a huge project, go for it!   I made this for my use and double length gets too long for my small paint booth.  The width was scientifically calculated and resulted in 3.25" because... that's the size of the hardboard scrap I had laying about.   Same for the 5/8" square notched bottom pieces, carefully selected from the same scrap bin.

The only pieces made specifically for this application are the masking strip end pieces as they have to be spaced off the platform at nominally the same height of the rail seat in the tie as well as the proper width for N scale.  They also have a built in pin with head to keep the elastic band in place and pulling straight at the same height as the styrene strips so that it all lays flat, keeping the strips seated in the tie pockets.  Those strips are glued in to the end pieces and the pocket has a bit of a strain relief in the design to not concentrate any flex from handling right at the joint.  They should be handled with some care but aren't really that delicate.  Those end pieces will be available in pairs for pretty small money, leaving the user to make up the rest of the rig with their own Evergreen .040" square and suitable arch frame.  BTW, I almost made the frame from 1/2" foam.  That would have worked, too.

Here's that piece:

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And these two pics might give a sense of what laying some bed might actually look like as well as one with some of the tools used.  Absent the install videos that will be part of completing this project, this might go a long way to understanding how it is accomplished, what all of the jibberish is about.   The white styrene square is used to help maintain a smooth flow of the curve while pinning.  It's not glued in, just under the pin head and goes back into the toolbox to use another day once the tie base glue sets.  It also affords a good visual to see that it's running smoothly, not kinked or anything else. 

The curving of the bed is accomplished by snipping every other tie bridge piece on the outside of the curve with the sprue nippers.  One snip, leaving the rest of the bridge piece in place, along for the ride.   In the pic that may not even show that they're cut but the stuff won't curve when joined on both sides.  But that double bridge is handy when laying straight track!

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[wazzou]

It does seem that there should be an 8' tie length offered.  That would be in branch and siding track, I'm guessing, and not on mains.  Yes?

All ties, mains included.

[Missaberoad]

It does seem that there should be an 8' tie length offered.  That would be in branch and siding track, I'm guessing, and not on mains.  Yes?

All ties, mains included.

Agreed, it would be all trackage including mainline... Most Soo Line mains would be "branchlines" by the standards of the big roads, but both Milwaukee and CP had pretty heavy duty trackage with 8 foot ties...

Still digging around and researching, hoping to find more info...

[narrowminded]

All ties, mains included.

OK.  It'll be available as a standard offering at standard pricing, whatever that winds up being. 

So far, all of these variations in size, spacing, or detail, concrete or wood tie, code 55 or code 40, will carry the same price.  If there's a real oddball that doesn't warrant stocking but is a stock drawing, there may be a minimum order of 6' for that size.   Manufacturers often refer to that as a "standard special".  At this point I don't see any of them starting out that way but with sales history over time that may happen to some of the less popular sizes.

Thanks for your interest and taking the time to add your input.

[narrowminded]

All ties, mains included.

Something just entered my mind.  What tie spacing do they use? 

20" mains, 22" branch, and 24" siding seems to be pretty standard with the variations visibly sufficient to detect the difference of one to another in a side by side installation without necessarily detecting what each specific spacing dimension is.  The same holds for standardizing tie dimensions at 8" x 7" for branch and siding ties and then 9" x 7" for mains.  Does anybody have any reason to disagree?  Remember, an inch in 1:1 is only .006" in N scale.   

None of this is yet etched in stone but I am trying to close in on some final offerings.   

[Missaberoad]

Something just entered my mind.  What tie spacing do they use? 

20" mains, 22" branch, and 24" siding seems to be pretty standard with the variations visibly sufficient to detect the difference of one to another in a side by side installation without necessarily detecting what each specific spacing dimension is.  The same holds for standardizing tie dimensions at 8" x 7" for branch and siding ties and then 9" x 7" for mains.  Does anybody have any reason to disagree?  Remember, an inch in 1:1 is only .006" in N scale.   

None of this is yet etched in stone but I am trying to close in on some final offerings.   

Sounds good to me! I'm still trying to get the whole picture, but I think as a safe bet I would definitly be interested in Code 40, 8 foot ties with 20/22/24 inch spacing... 

After a bit more digging, Milwaukee Roads mainline standard was between 2800 ties/mile (works out to 22" spacing) and 3200 ties/mile (works out to 19.8" spacing (Ive also read this was 19.5")

Canadian Pacific No 1 "mainline" ties were 7x9 No 2 ties were 6x8 both sizes were used on mainline and branchline trackage in different situations. I havent found a good source for tie spacing.

Edit: I found an article reference that listed CP ties per 39' section 24 mainline (19.5 inch spacing) and 19 secondary (24.6 inch spacing)

Soo Line Mainline tie spacing was around 22", there wasn't much high speed track on the Soo...

Unfortunately most of my library is packed for a move, but I'm pretty confident what you propose will work...

Edit: Keep in mind all of my references are from transition Era to 1970s sources, modern Era standards are quite different...

[narrowminded]

Sounds good to me! I'm still trying to get the whole picture, but I think as a safe bet I would definitly be interested in Code 40, 8 foot ties with 20/22/24 inch spacing... 

After a bit more digging, Milwaukee Roads mainline standard was between 2800 ties/mile (works out to 22" spacing) and 3200 ties/mile (works out to 19.8" spacing (Ive also read this was 19.5")

For that 1/2" difference in spacing (.003" N scale), I think I will keep the standard 20" spacing.  Does that seem OK?

Canadian Pacific No 1 "mainline" ties were 7x9 No 2 ties were 6x8 both sizes were used on mainline and branchline trackage in different situations. I havent found a good source for tie spacing.

7"x 9"x 8' sounds good for mains.  For the branch and siding tracks where 6"x 8"x 8'  is specified, I'm inclined to stay with the 7" height that's become a common size throughout (except concrete ties).  So far this allows all of the different wood tie strips to be butted to each other without concern for rail height and the ballast will tend to mask the tie height anyway.  Does this seem like acceptable thinking?

Edit: I found an article reference that listed CP ties per 39' section 24 mainline (19.5 inch spacing) and 19 secondary (24.6 inch spacing)

For a difference of 1/2" spacing (.003"), same as above OK?

Line Mainline tie spacing was around 22", there wasn't much high speed track on the Soo...

Unfortunately most of my library is packed for a move, but I'm pretty confident what you propose will work...

Edit: Keep in mind all of my references are from transition Era to 1970s sources, modern Era standards are quite different...

That's what we're working with for now.  If the interest is there we can look at the modern versions at a later time.  OK?

[Missaberoad]

Absolutely... I'm not too concerned about a half inch here or an inch there, what you proposed earlier sounds like it will work quite nicely...

Just posting my data for my own benifit to give a quick reference to look back on...