Concrete Tie strip for N Scale and Code 40 Rail

[GaryHinshaw]

Ed, there may be hope yet.  One of our members posted that Harley Smith's grandson Paul has taken on the business:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46799.msg613703#msg613703

That was less than a year ago, so I'm hopeful it's still going.  I'll see what I can do about a video, but I'm afraid it might scare more folks away from the hobby than it would attract. 

[Lemosteam]

Here is an idea:

Make the tie plates a symmetrical extrusion (rectangular section) that extends into a perfectly sized hole in the concrete tie.  Print a massive array of tie plates that can be airburshed with different colors. Break them all off their respective sprues, put them in a bowl and mix them up for random selection. 

Paint the concrete color on the tie strips. Insert the rail plates into the holes for a completely random colorization, and glue the tie strips following the intended centerlines (BTW, a small upside down V notch in the bottom of each tie would be helpful for that, and would be hidden by ballast) then glue down pre-weathered rail.

[dem34]

Here is an idea:

Make the tie plates a symmetrical extrusion (rectangular section) that extends into a perfectly sized hole in the concrete tie.  Print a massive array of tie plates that can be airburshed with different colors. Break them all off their respective sprues, put them in a bowl and mix them up for random selection. 

Paint the concrete color on the tie strips. Insert the rail plates into the holes for a completely random colorization, and glue the tie strips following the intended centerlines (BTW, a small upside down V notch in the bottom of each tie would be helpful for that, and would be hidden by ballast) then glue down pre-weathered rail.

IDK sounds like more effort than just painting the clips individually.

[peteski]

Here is an idea:

Make the tie plates a symmetrical extrusion (rectangular section) that extends into a perfectly sized hole in the concrete tie.  Print a massive array of tie plates that can be airburshed with different colors. Break them all off their respective sprues, put them in a bowl and mix them up for random selection. 

Paint the concrete color on the tie strips. Insert the rail plates into the holes for a completely random colorization, and glue the tie strips following the intended centerlines (BTW, a small upside down V notch in the bottom of each tie would be helpful for that, and would be hidden by ballast) then glue down pre-weathered rail.

Maybe it is me who is missing the point.  Here is Ed's finished concrete rail:


The rail clips do not seem to show any color variation.  To be honest, as I see it, the rail and rail clips are generally uniformly rusted (colored).  Besides, the clips are so tiny that if some were colored dry rust, and others greasy rust, they are too small to really see the color difference.  I also do not understand the fear of overspray or bleed through.  with tight fitting mask and light spray from an airbrush, I just don't see how that would be a problem. To me it would be easier and quicker to use mask (especially when dozens o strips are to be done) to do each tie strip in a single operation, than to paint each rail clip separately. Maybe I am not explaining well enough how that mask would look. 

[GaryHinshaw]

Pandrol clips are not really like ties plates at all, as you can see in the shot that Ed posted earlier.  They are semi-oval shaped clips that fasten to a base that is cast into the tie and they wrap around the rail base.  Here's a good view of their distinctive profile, which also shows how relatively tall they are, compared to a tie plate/spike combo:

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/560615/

It would be really cool if that undercut profile could be captured.  It would also make them easier to paint, because there would be very little contact area between the clip and the tie.   Might be too much of a printing challenge though.

[dem34]

The rail clips do not seem to show any color variation.  To be honest, as I see it, the rail and rail clips are generally uniformly rusted (colored).  Besides, the clips are so tiny that if some were colored dry rust, and others greasy rust, they are too small to really see the color difference.  I also do not understand the fear of overspray or bleed through.  with tight fitting mask and light spray from an airbrush, I just don't see how that would be a problem. To me it would be easier and quicker to use mask (especially when dozens o strips are to be done) to do each tie strip in a single operation, than to paint each rail clip separately. Maybe I am not explaining well enough how that mask would look. 

Anybody considered something simple like basswood or styrene in an L shape, supported and partially masked with tie space sized Triangle supports? Or is there some big flaw with that that I'm overlooking.

[peteski]

Here is a very rough and simplified sketch of my mask idea.


The mask would be 3D printed. The underside of the mask would be simple like female mold for the tops of the ties.  The paint openings would be larger at the top and exact size of the rail clips on the bottom (upside-down pyramid shaped openings).

The mask is then placed over the concrete-painted ties and then rust color sprayed over the openings.  That's all.  The concrete tie is left unpainted, and the clips are now rusty.  Single operation - no fussing over every clip.

[ednadolski]

Ed, there may be hope yet.  One of our members posted that Harley Smith's grandson Paul has taken on the business:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46799.msg613703#msg613703

Great!  I will definitely check that out. Thanks!   

... I'm afraid it might scare more folks away from the hobby than it would attract. 

Sorry, not buyin' it. Just point 'em at Tehachapi, BC 

Make the tie plates a symmetrical extrusion (rectangular section) that extends into a perfectly sized hole in the concrete tie.

Sounds more like a job for the photo etcher     But don't under-estimate how tiny those individual N-scale Code 40 tieplates actually are, or how tricky they are to handle. 

The rail clips do not seem to show any color variation.  To be honest, as I see it, the rail and rail clips are generally uniformly rusted (colored). 

The base color of new clips is a sort of reddish-brown, burnt sienna color:

https://doublebhomestead.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/p1020188.jpg

As they age they accumulate all manner of dirt/dust/grease/grime and mostly tend toward a sort of burnt umber color -- quite uniform as you rightly point out.  The surrounding ties/rail/ballast also tend get covered with a sort of dull gray/grime color.   You can see the difference in the pic that I posted, the foreground track is a low-traffic passing siding, and the second track is the mainline that handles all the heavy traffic:

https://i.imgur.com/XUEyeMa.jpg

I'm thinking to try airbrushing the gray/grime.  I've tried powders but they are very slow and I was never happy with the results.

I also do not understand the fear of overspray or bleed through.  with tight fitting mask and light spray from an airbrush, I just don't see how that would be a problem.

Think of how important it is to burnish the edges of masking tape to get a good line between two colors.  Airbrushing forces an atomized spray of a low viscosity fluid under positive pressure against every part of that edge, seeking out every last imperfection.   A mechanical mask would have be fit (nearly) perfectly, on every application, to keep the paint where you want it, and only where you want it.

Pandrol clips are not really like ties plates at all

There are several kinds of Pandrol clips: https://www.pandrolusa.com/product/.   The ones on Tehachapi are the Safelok I.  Not sure which ones the ME flex is supposed to represent.

The paint openings would be larger at the top and exact size of the rail clips on the bottom (upside-down pyramid shaped openings).

Do you really mean zero tolerance?    I don't think you could get that with any kind of 3D printing, etching, machining, or otherwise.

You're also predicating that the ties & clips themselves all print out with exactly zero variance.


Ed

[peteski]

Well, with a 3D printed mask (designed and printed by the same person who designed the tie strips), the tolerances can be quite close. Not zero, but close enough.  I usually don't use anything over 20 psi in my airbrush (usually 12 or 15) for small objects. Sometimes even lower. There wouldn't be much overspray at that pressure.

Most model manufacturers successfully use tight-fitting masks when doing multi-colored shells.  Just look at any multi-color MTL car (before they moved to ink-jet decorating.  I was just looking to make the painting less tedious (especially in larger quantity).  But if someone enjoys dabbing paint onto hundreds (or thousands) of little dimples, that's ok too.   I would rather be using that time for hand-laying a C40 switch. 

Oh well . . .

[ednadolski]

I was just looking to make the painting less tedious (especially in larger quantity).

Yes of course.  It's all pieces of the larger picture, and like so much else there is no single 'right' way to do something. Painting clips and/or tieplates is basically the same for either flextrack or hand-built track (I consider the tie strips as part of the latter).   Maybe tie strips can add a new way or two, depending on what one finds 'tedious' and what lengths one is willing to go to 'save effort'.  I think that I agree with @GaryHinshaw, that brush-painting clips isn't all that bad, and shaping ballast by hand is a lot more time-consuming.  That was my experience with flextrack as well as with this tie strip sample. I'm trying to figure out some sort of tool (brush?  template? functional scale Jordan spreader...?) that would help improve that.

Na dzrowie and Happy Christmas!

Ed

[peteski]

Na dzrowie and Happy Christmas!

Ed

And the same for you and yours. 

[narrowminded]

Here are some pics of a ballasted-up strip of the printed concrete ties.  I have to say I am really impressed with how these look and work!   Thanks and again, @narrowminded !

And thank you Ed, for supplying the inspiration and taking the time to try it out and offer your advice.  I really like what you did with it.

I'm sorry I've taken so much time to digest this review and see what things might need attention.  But here goes...

- I just glued the rail in place with CA, again as that's what I had on hand and it's sufficient for a sample.  Pliobond (or any glue) will get trickier to handle on longer lengths of rail.

As we discussed, this tie material takes paint and glue well and CA will definitely attach the rail to the ties.  The main thinking behind using Pliobond as the preferred method is for expansion and contraction, affording some resiliency in the joint.  Pliobond with strategically placed expansion joints is a tried and proven method for reliable attachment of hand laid rail to ties.  If the environment is known to be stable in temperature and humidity I suspect CA will hold up fine over the long haul too but just one extreme excursion from that and the potential for trouble exists and not just with this method but with any track work.

To that end I'm still experimenting with several methods for applying the glue to the joint.  I may be on to a little low cost tool to aid in this.  It would be useful for this tie bed but also for any hand laying effort requiring Pliobond application.

- I did not need any track gauges to set the distance between rails, tho some would probably be handy for working with longer lengths of rail.

That is one of the main features that started this concept for me.  Lay it in, done, and accurate to the target, with any rare excursion from that target not exceeding a couple of thousandths.  The follow on ability to make many variants within a basic scale and to add prototypical appearance details, all while producing in short quantities at a reasonable cost, was the icing on the cake.

- These are just cell phone pics, so they are not the greatest.

They look pretty outstanding to me, especially with the detailed box car.   And everybody's seen mine so I'll bow out at this point.

A few more thoughts on the strips:

- I notice the ties have more of a prototypical and "finescale" look compared to the ME ties which have a more chunky/coarse look.
- Even more than the ties, the difference in the size of the rail clips is even more apparent (and the rail of course speaks for itself).
- As I mentioned previously, the step aliasing while noticeable in some pics it is very hard to see in-person without magnification and strong ligh

This is all good news to me as it describes the whole endeavor in a nutshell.   And if there was any need they could be adjusted but they are mostly made to a common style and this one is accurately depicting an LB Foster prototype tie.  Unfortunately the aliasing lines are the nature of the process but as described, they are not very noticeable, especially to the naked eye, and if there was a specific spot that was to be used for detailed photos they could be sanded out if really necessary.  The material sands well.  Fortunately this is not an issue on the wooden ties with their totally flat faces.

- It would be great if these could be molded in a prototype concrete color, to save the separate painting step.

Yes, that would be nice but... the process won't allow a fully opaque color as it needs to allow light to shine through to cure the resin as it's being built up.  And once the part is complete, the resin has a certain sheen which won't be acceptable so we would still need to do something to dull it.  With these things in mind it seems that we're going to be applying a finish at some point so it might as well be the very flat color of our choice.   That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

- The webbing between ties should be on alternating ties, as it is too much time & work to have to clip it off between each and every tie on all curves.  The double-webbing actually isn't much help either for tangent track: since the strips are only about 4" long it still is necessary to align the strips with a straightedge.

I know that's a common way to do this with the existing flex tie products and it works well.  It's such a common method that my first trials with this material were reflexively designed that way.  BUT... (bear with me) this material is not inherently flexible the way that the typical tie bed material is so the ability to flex is accomplished in part by keeping those bridging features pretty thin (.020"?), allowing them to be quite flexible without breaking.  (I have curved 1 1/2"R testing this.)   But that flexibility without the double bridging will also leave the bed pretty floppy until it's finally glued down.  That makes handling at all times, until finally installed, more awkward than necessary and if the single bridges are staggered from side to side it invites angled stepping on straights from easily compressing or stretching the strip.  Once I added the second guide all handling became much easier even though the typical straightedge was still needed on long straight runs.  Also, keep in mind that flex track has two metal rails in place adding rigidity to the free standing sections.  Even with the rails it still moves around pretty readily.  In this approach we don't have the rails to help support things.

As far as the length goes, they are just over 4 1/2" as made but if you have a long section to run, straight or curved, the strips can be glued together and handled as one.  The way they are made, the one end starts with the flat tie face, no bridge piece projecting.  The other end has the last two bridge pieces projecting from the tie at full length.   Butting those pieces together sets the accurate spacing whether glued or just butted in place.  If there was a desire to have them joined as one longer piece (I've done both, glued and just butted in place) do it on the bench and use a piece of rail placed in one side of the guides to assure alignment of the two tie strips.  A very small drop of CA applied with a toothpick on both bridge projections and then slide them together, butted.  Then you can just proceed using the strip as one continuous piece. 

This is also how you lay it without joining the strips together ahead of time.  Spread your tie bed glue on the board (I use Tite-bond II), place the tie bed,  eyeballed in place and butted together, and then, for alignment, set a piece of rail into either the right or left set of guides to sight along as well as to assure bed to bed guide alignment.  The wood glue affords decent working time to get this done without too much pressure to rush the job.  And if it later needs some adjusting, adding a little water will soften it up and let you rework as needed.  I found this step to be little different than laying flex track.

As far as cutting the bridges, have you actually tried flexing a curve with this yet?  I suspect you're approaching it as though those bridge pieces need to be completely removed and, especially if working with a saw or cut-off wheel, that would be tedious.  Also, for ease of alignment through the curve I snip every other tie, not every tie.  I am using a pair of Xuron Sprue Cutters (just like your rail nippers but a thinner nose) and just one snip on every other tie bridge piece on the outer side of the curve, leaving the tie bridge piece in place, just snipped.  I shoulder the nippers against one tie, snip and done.  Skip a tie, repeat.  

Here's also where the thin profile of the bridge piece has a second benefit as it is so narrow that the remaining piece is still well nested under the rail foot so easily remains hidden even on more severe curves.  It's exactly what's done on my 2 1/2" radius curves on my first install on my Nn3 test track and once ballasted the bridge pieces don't show at all. 

- The webbing should be a little lower, to make it easier to bury with ballast.   Regardless, the webbing is a *huge* improvement over the webbing on the ME track (which is impossible to hide with ballast without making the ballast higher than the rail base).

Hmmm, I hear you.  I saw that the ballast with the concrete ties seems to be a little lower than with wood ties and is why I lowered it at all, as you received it.  Your suggestion is to lower it more, I guess.  That can be done easily.  I actually left the bridge piece full height on the wooden tie bed figuring the ballast typically comes up pretty near the rails on that and with the bridge pretty well nested it won't/ hasn't shown.  And maybe I'm over ballasting.   Hmmm 

The extra gluing surface seemed like good free insurance of a solid attachment (it's there, use it) but it is also a bit of a belt and suspenders approach where only one is really needed.  This will be investigated further.

Anyways here are the pics:

I know there are many and no need to post them all again but I had to leave at least this one.  That boxcar!  I love it!

Looking forward to hearing thoughts and feedback from everyone

Me too.

And thanks again, Ed.  This is very helpful. 

Happy Holidays, all!

[robert3985]

@narrowminded  Mark, I got home 15 minutes ago (8:00PM MST) and checked my mailbox.  Santa left me a package!  Your wooden tie samples have arrived and I will unpack and start reviewing tomorrow.

First impression without unwrapping the clear plastic container is how incredibly small the details on these ties are!!  I've observed with Optivisors as close as they will allow me, and I am extremely impressed with what I'm seeing!

More impressions as well as photos sometime tomorrow...probably in the late afternoon MST from Utah.

WOW!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[narrowminded]

@narrowminded  Mark, I got home 15 minutes ago (8:00PM MST) and checked my mailbox.  Santa left me a package!  Your wooden tie samples have arrived and I will unpack and start reviewing tomorrow.

First impression without unwrapping the clear plastic container is how incredibly small the details on these ties are!!  I've observed with Optivisors as close as they will allow me, and I am extremely impressed with what I'm seeing!

More impressions as well as photos sometime tomorrow...probably in the late afternoon MST from Utah.

WOW!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

I didn't think they'd arrive so quickly.  Anxious to hear what you come up with.

[narrowminded]

I am presently working on a transition strip from code 55 to code 40.  It holds the rails' inside edges (gauge) in alignment to each other and over several ties it tapers the code 40 rail height down to the original base level.  This is still working from the position of no use of non-prototypical rail joiners. 

The bed holds the alignment and feeders soldered to the bottom of the rail supplies the power.  No unsightly joiners, no soldering to hold alignment in curves (the rail is curved before to install) and no sanding ties to fill in those joints after the track is laid.  This whole effort is to provide very accurate track, prototypical detail appearance, tie plates too, and with little different skills required than laying flex track and better appearance at much less effort than hand laid track.  That's the goal!