Making a Prototype - Colorado

[eric220]

Back to Eric...  In your history, I see no motivation for the Denver & Salt Lake to ever dig the Moffat Tunnel, suggesting that the D&RGW Tennessee Pass line is the Pennsy's only real competition over the Divide.

Quite the contrary. The PRR actually tried to merge with the D&SL to get that route, but the Rio Grande stopped it. It wasn’t until the D&SL reached Salt Lake And had that route tied up that the PRR was forced to build the line over Loveland Pass.

[eric220]

As a shareholder in the PRR in 1903, I would wonder what folly would have my invest in a torturously expensive line that takes our attention from the heart of industrial might of the entire world!  Billions would be needed, to do what, pull a few tons lead?  There are existing federally funded routes already in place, and the Northern Pacific proves that there already too many.
I might support an amalgamation with James J. Hill to coordinate traffic with the Great Northern and CB&Q, but I vote my proxy NO to this mad adventure...

A little late for that vote. The Pennsylvania Pacific holding company was formed in 1894, and by 1903, all that was left was to link Denver to Glenwood Springs.

[Dave V]

Quite the contrary. The PRR actually tried to merge with the D&SL to get that route, but the Rio Grande stopped it. It wasn’t until the D&SL reached Salt Lake And had that route tied up that the PRR was forced to build the line over Loveland Pads.

Yeah, but...  The D&SL had that torturous route with loop after loop over loop to get over Rollins Pass:



If the PRR built a thoroughfare through that part of Colorado prior to the start of construction of the Moffat Tunnel in 1922, it would have severely siphoned traffic off the D&SL in the same way the D&RG killed the Colorado Midland.  By 1922 there wouldn't be much more than local traffic over the D&SL.

[wm3798]

Piffle!  Such an extraordinary over extension of resources is unconscionable!  You might as well attempt to merge with that wag Vanderbilt and his amalgam of patched together toy train sets!  You had better change the ink in your ticker tape to red, I say!

And more than this, when President Roosevelt gets wind of this, the anti trust fervor will descend upon you like the Rough Riders on San Juan Hill!

Lee

[eric220]

@Dave V important point that I neglected to mention, the D&RGW didn’t have a route to Salt Lake. In probably one of the least likely links in the chain, the PRR managed to get control of the original Rio Grande Western that ran from Salt Lake to Grand Junction. The D&RGW needed the western part of the Moffatt Route to link to Salt Lake. Once that was done, building the Moffatt Tunnel still makes sense, since it would cut a lot of time off of the Tennessee Pass route, if that route then had to continue north.

[Dave V]

@Dave V important point that I neglected to mention, the D&RGW didn’t have a route to Salt Lake. In probably one of the least likely links in the chain, the PRR managed to get control of the original Rio Grande Western that ran from Salt Lake to Grand Junction. The D&RGW needed the western part of the Moffatt Route to link to Salt Lake. Once that was done, building the Moffatt Tunnel still makes sense, since it would cut a lot of time off of the Tennessee Pass route, if that route then had to continue north.

Oh, wow...  That just got a whole lot uglier.  So there's no real D&RGW at that point then, since the original D&RG got to Salt Lake via the RGW, and the 1901 consolidation must not then have happened.  Neither would the 1921 reorg into the D&RGW have happened.  I struggle to imagine a world in which the D&RG remained viable without a connection past Grand Junction, let alone having enough power to divert the PRR.

Without the Sat Lake connection the D&RG would not have had the power or influence to take on the AT&SF's many advances over the decades into Colorado.  In that world then the AT&SF would have strengthened the Colorado Midland and probably built the proposed route between Denver and Cripple Creek via Deckers.  It might also have won out over La Veta Pass and changed the very nature of the D&RG in Southwest Colorado...and by extension the RGS.

It just got messy....really, really messy.

[eric220]

Well, the D&RGW would have gained the link to Salt Lake with the Denver & Salt Lake completing that route in 1914. They got there, just a little later and by a different route.

[Dave V]

Well, the D&RGW would have gained the link to Salt Lake with the Denver & Salt Lake completing that route in 1914. They got there, just a little later and by a different route.

That's a hard sell for me.  In fact, with a transcontinental PRR right through the heart of the Rockies connecting Denver and Salt Lake, why ever bother to build a much slower, more difficult, and less direct Denver & Salt Lake Railroad in the first place?

[wm3798]

Your theory starts to unravel when you postulate that too many things did or didn't happen.  Sort of the "one butterfly" concept in evolutionary science...also popular in time travel mythology...  If you accidentally step on one butterfly, the course of its ecosystem will likely be changed significantly, if not catastrophically over the period of an era.  Such is your construct. 

You also don't take into account other very real events, such as the financial crises of 1901 and 1907, both of which had significant impact on railroad ownership and expansion.  The whole thing starts to get downright outrageous when you have to over reach for the next crack in the face of the Rockies in order to continue your climb.

I think you'll save yourself a lot of time and frustration by saying "I like the Rockies, and I like Pennsy equipment, and I'm going to run my trains on my layout!"  It will save you a lot of effort.

Old Salty.

[wm3798]

But then again, as I look at my Retro fleet, I have the sneaking suspicion that somewhere in your collection is a Con Cor gas turbine locomotive emblazoned with DGLE and a Keystone... and without all of this chin scratching, you can't justify keeping it  !!

Am I right?

Lee

[Dave V]

In the late 90s I did a freelanced standard gauge railroad that connected with the Colorado Midland and D&RG at Aspen ,running south over Taylor Pass around the east side of Mt Crested Butte to Almont, and thence to a connection with the D&RG and DSP&P at Gunnison.  Chances are it would never have earned enough to be worth building...  Having the D&RG on both ends would have made things tough, though it would have given the AT&SF access to the Gunnison Country via the CMRy.  It had the unimaginative name of Gunnison, South Park & Pacific, and generally followed a blend of CMRy and D&RG (standard gauge) practice.  Wintertime in the mountains between Aspen and Crested Butte is no shorter than 9 months long and the railroad would have been a sh!tshow to operate up 4%+ grades on either side of Taylor Park.

[eric220]

That's a hard sell for me.  In fact, with a transcontinental PRR right through the heart of the Rockies connecting Denver and Salt Lake, why ever bother to build a much slower, more difficult, and less direct Denver & Salt Lake Railroad in the first place?

When Moffatt started the Denver and Salt Lake, the railroad situation across the Rockies looked exactly like it did historically, just with some different owners here and there.  The D&SL was incorporated in 1903, and the PRR didn't gain the final link in the transcontinental route until 1905, and then only with trackage rights in places.  Even with those links, from 1905 to 1914, the PRR was trying to use the Midland as its link across the Rockies.  The Loveland Pass route didn't open until 1920, six years after the D&SL, under Rio Grande control, linked to Salt Lake.  If you look at that scenario on a map, the motivation to drill the Moffatt Tunnel is still very apparent.  It would actually be a shorter route than the PRR's from Denver to Salt Lake City.

[eric220]

But then again, as I look at my Retro fleet, I have the sneaking suspicion that somewhere in your collection is a Con Cor gas turbine locomotive emblazoned with DGLE and a Keystone... and without all of this chin scratching, you can't justify keeping it  !!

Am I right?

No.

[Dave V]

When Moffatt started the Denver and Salt Lake, the railroad situation across the Rockies looked exactly like it did historically, just with some different owners here and there.  The D&SL was incorporated in 1903, and the PRR didn't gain the final link in the transcontinental route until 1905, and then only with trackage rights in places.  Even with those links, from 1905 to 1914, the PRR was trying to use the Midland as its link across the Rockies.  The Loveland Pass route didn't open until 1920, six years after the D&SL, under Rio Grande control, linked to Salt Lake.  If you look at that scenario on a map, the motivation to drill the Moffatt Tunnel is still very apparent.  It would actually be a shorter route than the PRR's from Denver to Salt Lake City.

But...  The D&SL not only never made it to Salt Lake, it hadn't even made it to Craig (its eventual final destination) until 1919, and the Dostero cut-off that made it a viable connection with the D&RGW wasn't built until 1931.  You could argue D&RGW pressure would have gotten the Dotsero Cutoff built sooner, but you're still in very, very shaky territory there.

And the other elephant in the room is that all of the transcontinental routes through Colorado were much more expensive to operate for longer transit times than the original transcontinental route through Wyoming.  It made sense for regionals like the Colorado Midland and the Denver & Rio Grande to do it, but I don't understand the PRR's motivation--if ultimately just to get to California--to go through the most difficult terrain in the Intermountain West, when there were routes to the north and to the south that would have been so much cheaper.  Colorado was a much less attractive place to build a railroad after the Silver Panic of 1893.

[eric220]

But...  The D&SL not only never made it to Salt Lake, it hadn't even made it to Craig (its eventual final destination) until 1919, and the Dostero cut-off that made it a viable connection with the D&RGW wasn't built until 1931.  You could argue D&RGW pressure would have gotten the Dotsero Cutoff built sooner, but you're still in very, very shaky territory there.

And the other elephant in the room is that all of the transcontinental routes through Colorado were much more expensive to operate for longer transit times than the original transcontinental route through Wyoming.  It made sense for regionals like the Colorado Midland and the Denver & Rio Grande to do it, but I don't understand the PRR's motivation--if ultimately just to get to California--to go through the most difficult terrain in the Intermountain West, when there were routes to the north and to the south that would have been so much cheaper.  Colorado was a much less attractive place to build a railroad after the Silver Panic of 1893.

To the D&SL, in the alternate history, they did connect to Salt Lake, and did so with the D&RGW backing them.  It's been a long time since I researched that part of the history.  I probably had some motivation to bump the date up to to 1914, so that's where it fell, with the justification that it would have been built faster with more financial backing.

To why the PRR chose that route, that falls squarely in the category of, "Because that's where I want it to go."  The alternate history includes the Texas and Pacific, which might have been a bit more plausible as a transcontinental route, but I postulate that that route got cut off by the Southern Pacific, at least initially.  Some of the pieces that fell into place early on that dictated the route were the Kansas Pacific and the Central Pacific. The PRR was left to connect Denver to Ogden.