Starting to plan first layout - seeking advice

[digitaldave]

Hi all!

EDIT - Apologies if this isn't the right forum, I thought it didn't really belong in the Layout Engineering Reports forum, as I haven't started building anything yet.

I'm planning on making my first layout soon as I'm moving to a house with a lot more space, so I'm starting to think about what I want to do. I will be starting small (something like an HCD layout, or 8'x4') and depending on space, it would be good to eventually have a larger layout. My question is, if I do something small, is it a good idea to build it so it can be made part of a larger layout later on, or should I just build a relatively simple layout first, then start again when I'm ready for something bigger?

For my small starter layout, I was thinking of something relatively simple like a loop round the outside for continuous running with a yard and industry (or industries if I can fit a couple) in the centre. But I'm not sure this would be easy to fit in to a larger layout. I had thought that maybe having a line going off each end (obviously not being used in the small layout) that could form connections to other parts of a larger layout might be a good option, but my concern would be that the loop wouldn't really feel right in a larger layout - I hope that makes sense.

So, if anyone has any thoughts, please let me know.

Thanks,

Dave.

[wazzou]

I think it is perfectly fine if not smart to hone your skills on a small layout to get the knack for track laying, wiring, ballasting and scenery skills.
Easier to diagnose or adjust things on a smaller layout so that when you do become dissatisfied with it, you'll feel confident when moving to something larger.

The only advice I can offer so far is to avoid the yard and industries in the center, if possible.
You don't want to always be reaching over a mainline with trains running to uncouple cars or throw a turnout.

[MVW]

Personally, I think it's preferable to design a small layout to provide for the possibility of incorporating it into something larger at a later date. But then I'm cheap and lazy. 

On the other hand, if this is your first layout ever, it might not be a bad idea to just build it as a standalone, to help you gain experience in all the different facets of layout construction, as wazzou noted. The benefit of this approach is that you won't be haunted by early miscues, and it could even provide you with the ability to enjoy some nice roundy-round action when you start construction on the next, larger layout. (A common problem when building larger layouts is that it can take a long time to get to the point where the layout is capable of providing any operational interest.)

Final answer: Both approaches provide benefits. If you're completely new to layout construction, start with an HCD-sized project. You'll be close to becoming an expert by the time you're done.

Jim

[DKS]

Adding another voice to the mix, I'd recommend starting small so as not to spend too much money on materials as you learn the various skills required. Smaller than HCD might not be a bad idea, as there are many, many facets to layout-building.

Here are some ideas to chew on: http://davidksmith.com/track-planning/compact.htm

While there are loads of how-to's and other information online, you can always stop back here for some quick pointers. We're not at all adverse to helping beginners.

[Jbub]

If there is a club in your area you could also do a 4 foot module. My first (and current) layout experience was a 12 foot x 30 inch module that I continually update. I've learned a lot from it and hope it helps when it comes time to build the home layout

[Maletrain]

There are a lot of aspects to building a satisfying layout.  People usually think in terms of now much track can be fit into a particular area - without really having experience operating the equipment they intend to use in the manner they intend to use it.  An oval is great for testing equipment to see how it looks on various curve radii and how well it pulls on curves and grades.  Some areas for switching provide a chance to try out various coupler types and uncoupling methods (e.g., picks, magnets and electromagnets).  But, loops are not usually the most scenic layouts.

Getting some experience running equipment and building layouts can be done either at home, or in a club.  The experience will help you figure out both what you really like to spend your time doing and how to do it well enough to satisfy yourself.  If operation is one of your desires, then starting small enough allows you to get to that point soon enough to not lose interest in the hobby.  And, it saves you money to start small, since you will almost certainly make mistakes and false starts on methods that don't turn out to please you.

So, I suggest that you consider the first layout a testing process, with the idea that it will not be part of the ultimate layout.  However, it might be useful to make it in parts so that some of those parts could be repurposed into a larger layout if you like them well enough. 

[mmagliaro]

This is such an enormous question, so I'll try to throw out some broad general advice.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have absolutely no street "cred" for designing layouts other than that I have built 7 in my lifetime (not counting the HO ones I did as a kid) and learned a great deal each time.

Being your first layout, the watchword should be "flexibility". 
Try to build something you can easily reach, easily change as you go, and don't be afraid to rip things out and do them over.  This one has to be your "lab experiment".

I would not build it with the prospect of incorporating it into a larger effort later.
By the time you have built it, you will have learned so much that you would probably not want to reuse it.  I have been down this road (as have so many here).   Between layouts 1 and 2, I reused #1 as part of #2, but always regretted it because that whole "#1" section was always the weak link of the new layout, in every way.  I would have been much better off taking what I had learned and starting over.  When I tore the whole thing down and built #3, it was a massive improvement for many reasons, but partly because ALL of it was at least up to the standard of #2.

Don't build anything that you cannot reach.
And I don't mean "reach" as in stretch uncomfortably from one side; be able to reach anywhere on the layout easily enough to work on it.   A HCD away from the wall would be fine.  But if you put it against a wall, a 30" door might be a little awkward to reach at the back.  Just have a plan for how you can move it away from the wall if you have to get back there.  I say this because, especially on a first layout, you are bound to want to make improvements/repairs/changes.

Resist the urge to build a "loop around the outside".
That is a natural tendency, especially on a door-sized layout.
But you can make it so much more interesting if your continuous-running "loop" takes an odd diagonal path across the door, meandering through some scenery.

Think in 3D.
Try not to think about it as slapping track onto a flat HCD.  Think about terrain, at least some.  Yes, I know... it's more complicated to build in grades or waterways.  You don't have to build a track spanning the Rio Grande.  But this is a learning layout, so try to put *something* into your plan that will require you to elevate or lower the track, or put raised or lowered sections of scenery SOMEWHERE, just so you get to experiment with this.  A good way to go is to put a sheet of 2" thick construction foam on top of your HCD and then build on top of that, if for no other reason than it is easy to chop and hack into if you want to put a dip in the ground, or a little stream running under a track.  If you never do, no harm done.  You'll have a flat layout on top of foam.  But it gives you the option.  (Remember, this is your "laboratory" - keep your options open to experiment).

Finally...

LOOK AT A LOT OF LAYOUT PLANS!   Before I built #3, I bought a half dozen commonly-available layout planning books and pored over them, looking at features of many layouts to learn about what I liked.  And looking at those plans will break you out of any preconceived mental "rut" (like putting a loop around the outside).  I'm not saying you CAN'T put a loop around the outside.  I'm just cautioning you not to assume that that is the best way to get continuous running with some switching on a HCD space.

[CRL]

Using a standard HCD is a good starting point. Agree you should avoid a loop/oval. A water wing shape fits nicely, giving a long straight on one side but nice curves on the other side. The straight side allows a double ended siding for a runaround track and a couple of industrial spur tracks.

Leave room for scenery. Don’t crowd the layout with too much track.

Bite the bullet, learn how to solder and use flex track.

Have fun.

[robert3985]

I got my start by joining an Ntrak club and running trains for a few months before settling on what I wanted to build.  Luckily, the club had a permanent setup in a vacant store in a mall so running was easy to do without any investment at all except the initiation fee and monthly dues of the club.

After a few months, I was able to come to a decision about what I wanted to build within the Ntrak modular standards, and the local club standards (with a few special dispensations). 

I took my time and designed two dedicated 6' modules, getting a lot of feedback from the more experienced club members, as well as being able to try my hand at track-laying, ballasting, wiring and scenery on the in-progress club modules under the watchful eyes of the club experts, before I did it on my own.

Along with my 12 feet of modules, I made two quick and dirty return modules for the ends from 1X4's and a 3/8" plywood top, and two 6' X 2' bridge modules on the backside to form a loop so I could run trains through my in-progress modules.  This also allowed me to use the two end-loop modules and the bridge modules for any new modules between 6' and 12' that I wanted to build in the future. 

Total length of 12' of modules and the two end loops was 16', which fit easily in my unfinished basement.

After the club decided to move on to more advanced and realistic standards than Ntrak offered, I decided to build my home layout using 6' long layout sections/modules which I could easily break down to take to shows or to move them easily if I moved. I settled on a maximum size of 3'X6' because that is the largest size I can easily handle alone if I need to do that, but several sections are smaller width-wise, and one is longer.   

The sectional/modular approach allows me to have a layout that grows or shrinks within the parameters of the different layout rooms I've had over the last 30 years during 5 moves, and also to break the layout down and take it to shows if I'm invited.  This last move, my son and I broke the layout down and put it in a large U-Haul trailer in about four hours...including packing up all of my rolling stock, motive power and structures. Setting it up will take he and I about three hours in my new layout room when I get the wall treatment finished.

My present sectional setup occupies a space of 28' X 13' and is built up with 9 sections/modules with integral folding legs and a removable skyboard.  Presently, it is an island, but in the future it can be configured as an around-the-wall layout depending on what I finally settle into as my permanent residence.

In other words, there is a lot of flexibility in designing your layout as sectional, starting out small, with return loop sections and wiring with connectors between sections that can simply be unplugged, legs that easily fold, but are sturdy and braced for layout stability.

You'll see that in many layout plans, there are tracks designed into the plan that go to the edge of the layout, and are there to make future growth easier.  Starting out with a simple plan that can grow, or be modified easily because of its sectional nature, will allow you to learn the basics with the first section or two.  If you join a modular club such as Ntrak or Free-MoN, it would be easy to incorporate your modules into your home layout.

Another option would be T-track, with its really small modules and Kato Unitrack, which would teach you the basics of model railroading really quickly, although I am not a fan of Unitrack, or T-track's modular standards.  The small size and small investment into a basic module or two, is an advantage, but I would not want to use T-Tracik modules as the beginning point of a modular home layout.

Anyway, that's my two-bits worth...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[wm3798]

There's a lot to unpack here.  "First Layout" is a door swung wide open.

As someone who started out with N scale when both of us were in our larval stage, I've gone from the small oval around the outside to the around the walls operations layout, to the room filling, crew operating, budget busting layout that made into the magazines.  Guess what I'm doing now...

A retro layout with a loop around the outside that fits in the corner of my office, using the same snap track (literally... the SAME snap track... I don't throw anything away) that I used back in the 70s on my first layout.  There's a lot of reasons for this devolution, but in the end, after a long break from any kind of model railroading, the simplicity of the loop and running those old trains with a power pack is enormously satisfying...

So first things first...  What do you want to get out of this layout?  You mentioned that you want to develop some skills.  In this hobby, as I'm sure you are aware, those skills include a range of activities, including planning, building, wiring, soldering, painting, trimming, scenery, budgeting, history, photography, topography, geology, geography.... on and on.

Start with something simple.  That track on the outside with some switchy switching on the inside is a good place to do that.  If you're hoping to refine your skills weathering rolling stock or building structures, it's a lot more satisfying to tinker with those things while a train is running around in the background.  I suggest you start with sectional track, which is available in good looking code 55, simple snap track in code 80, Kato Unitrak, and a range of other products.  Snap track affords you the luxury of putting together a loop and then adding to it and still be able to run trains around it as it morphs.  Check Ebay or N Scale Yard Sale on Facebook, there's always boxes of old track available at reasonable prices.

Drawing out a plan on a piece of graph paper is fun, but there's nothing like laying out a bunch of track in front of you, and monkeying around with it until you arrive at a plan you like.  Once you have that, solder the joints you need to keep the train running, then work on the other stuff you want to try.  Never fool yourself into believing that this will be part of a bigger future railroad.  Maybe it will, but don't let that constrain your efforts on this laboratory experiment.

If making it part of something bigger is on your mind, then I suggest you start with something smaller, such as an N trak module or even a TTrak module.  You don't get to run a train right away, but you do get to do a little wiring, a little scenery, and some construction, so it's a good test bed to see what you're good at.

But the best advice I can give you is to linger around in the Engineering Reports, study the conversations about how a track plan develops... not the whole layout plans, but the more focused studies on a small yard, an industrial track, a passenger station.... see how the various inhabitants of this asylum have worked through those puzzles, and learn from their mistakes.

And don't forget to enjoy yourself.  Even when you want to throw it all out the window!

Lee

[CRL]

...see how the various inhabitants of this asylum...

Hey, I resemble that remark! 

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Damn, lots of good advice here, and I don't have a whole lot to add that hasn't been said already.

But I never miss an opportunity to say something, so...

Don't get hung up on the layout's longevity. Play with it, experiment, develop skills and hone your tastes and interests.

The HCD is a good starting point because you can "get modeling quickly" AND because if you put some foam down on top (which I generally recommend), you can rip it off if you're not happy and start again.

Don't be afraid to mess it up.

If your goal is realism, treat scenery and scene composition like any other model: work from photographs of reality.

And despite the website to the contrary, there is NOT a prototype for everything. 

[DKS]

I echo Ed, and would add: don't be afraid to make mistakes. That's actually how we learn best.

And despite the website to the contrary, there is NOT a prototype for everything.

Well, Ed's Law states otherwise...

 

[garethashenden]

One thing I’d add on top of what everyone has already suggested is to consider what you want from the second layout. For instance, if your dream is a large layout focused on operations with lots of switching, build some switching into the small layout. Maybe it will turn out you absolutely hate switching, it’s better to find that out sooner than later, before you invest all the time and money on a large layout. Alternately, if you’re more of a railfan and just want to watch the trains go by, make sure you build a continuous track so they can keep going.

But the most important thing is to actually do something. It won’t be perfect and that’s absolutely fine. You’ll get better. 

[MVW]

But the most important thing is to actually do something. It won’t be perfect and that’s absolutely fine. You’ll get better.

Key point. Thinking about and planning a railroad is so much fun, some people hardly ever get around to building one.

Do it. Then do it better.

I oftentimes find myself reluctant to tackle a new hobby-related task. When I finally get around to it, usually after considerable procrastination, I inevitably ask myself, "What the hell was I worried about?"

Jim