Unexpected Disappointment with an ESU Decoder

[davefoxx]

Forum,

I bought a WalthersMainline HO scale GP9 from MBK this week at what I thought was such a ridiculous price for an HO scale locomotive with ESU DCC and sound ($132.99!) that I couldn't pass one up.  However, upon receipt of the locomotive, I discover in the instructions that the decoder's sound effects are not modifiable on a LokProgrammer.  WTF?!  Granted, you get what you pay for, but I had no idea that ESU was making "economy" decoders.  This decoder is worthless to me, because I do not want to have to go back to JMRI for one stinking locomotive in the fleet after converting the entire fleet to ESU.  I haven't popped the shell yet, but I believe it's supposed to be a 21-pin decoder.  So, it will be super easy to replace, but, of course, that jacks the cost of this locomotive over the price of what I would normally pay for a similar locomotive with a LokSound decoder . . . and this locomotive is not similarly detailed. 

Nowhere in the description of the locomotive (on MBK's or Walthers' websites) is it indicated that this decoder is unable to be programmed on a LokProgrammer.  I very likely would have passed on this locomotive, if I had known that I would have to replace the decoder.  Not to mention that the locomotive seems a bit skittish, which I am very certain is the fault of the decoder and not the driveline.  I cleaned the wheels, which settled down some of the erratic movement, but it won't play nice with the other locomotives in my fleet until I redecoderize it.

How stupid is this?!

DFF

[MK]

Very.  Could you return it back to MBK and point out the non programmability?  I'm sure they probably don't even know about this.

[reinhardtjh]

This is the ESU "Essential Sound Unit" decoder.  It's used by Scaletrains in a few of it's offerings and now, apparently, by Walthers.  There is a new thread about it on the ESU Yahoo group mailing list.  It's a really dumbed down version of the LokSound V4 and not well liked by anyone it seems because it is very un-programmable.  I think Scaletrains has backed off using it somewhat since it's first introduction last year due to complaints.

You should be able to modify the standard CVs from the LokProgrammer.  But you won't be able to make any of the other sound changes you might expect from a Select level decoder.   But I may be wrong as I don't have one of these units (and so far none have made it to N scale so hopefully never will).

You also won't find much decoder specific help in JMRI at the moment either as Dave Heap hasn't had time to write any of the necessary code.  He is working on both this and the V5 code but life happens. 

More info from the Yahoo Group thread.  The original post was a complaint about the GP9:

I am also experiencing two operating issues:
1. The unit seems to hop/jump when I adjust the throttle speed from and to zero.
     From speed 0 to 5, it jumps, then starts accelerating normally.
     From speed 5 to 0, it rolls to a normal stop, then jumps.

2. When I run the unit on a flat surface at a constant speed, it keeps notching up
    and down and its' own, almost like it is playing a sound loop file. 

One response was:

The Lokprogrammer does read/write this decoder, and installs a firmware fix.I recommend you find a friend with a Lokprogrammer and do the read/write to get the fix. May solve some of your issues.

Dave Heap also responded:

> Auto-tune not available on Essential sound units.
> I tried, got no response.

I discovered the same.

>
> The Lokprogrammer does read/write this decoder, and installs a firmware fix.I recommend you find a friend with a Lokprogrammer and do the read/write to get the fix. May solve some of your issues.

Yes there are firmware upgrades for the Essential Sound Unit. If you happen to have an NCE Power Pro system, the upgrade is essential if you want to use Program Track (CVs>256).

Dave in Australia

[davefoxx]

Very.  Could you return it back to MBK and point out the non programmability?  I'm sure they probably don't even know about this.

I am sure that MBK would take it back, as they have been exceptionally good to me in customer service over the years.  At this point, though, I like having a first generation locomotive in my fleet of second gens, so I'll likely keep it.  I'm just not ecstatic about what the final cost of this will be once I replace the decoder and thought that others might wish to be forewarned.

Thanks,
DFF

[davefoxx]

This is the ESU "Essential Sound Unit" decoder.  It's used by Scaletrains in a few of it's offerings and now, apparently, by Walthers.  There is a new thread about it on the ESU Yahoo group mailing list.  It's a really dumbed down version of the LokSound V4 and not well liked by anyone it seems because it is very un-programmable.  I think Scaletrains has backed off using it somewhat since it's first introduction last year due to complaints.

You should be able to modify the standard CVs from the LokProgrammer.  But you won't be able to make any of the other sound changes you might expect from a Select level decoder.   But I may be wrong as I don't have one of these units (and so far none have made it to N scale so hopefully never will).

You also won't find much decoder specific help in JMRI at the moment either as Dave Heap hasn't had time to write any of the necessary code.  He is working on both this and the V5 code but life happens. 

More info from the Yahoo Group thread.  The original post was a complaint about the GP9:

One response was:
Dave Heap also responded:

This is all news to me.  Thanks for the info, John!

DFF

[peteski]

You're not the only surprised modeler out there.

I wonder if the hardware on that decoder is actually dumbed-down or they use the same components (the micro-controller chip) and they simply dumbed it down by installing a special (dumbed-down) firmware on a fully-capable hardware.  But I guess that even if the decoder had fully-capable hardware, I don't know how to hack it and force it to upload standard ESU firmware (to fully enable its capabilities).

[davefoxx]

I'm not sure, Pete, but I'll play with it on the LokProgrammer and see what it can do, mainly out of curiosity.  I am 100% certain that I will redecoderize this locomotive, because I have the exact same symptoms of the complaint in John's post above:

I am also experiencing two operating issues:
1. The unit seems to hop/jump when I adjust the throttle speed from and to zero.
     From speed 0 to 5, it jumps, then starts accelerating normally.
     From speed 5 to 0, it rolls to a normal stop, then jumps.

2. When I run the unit on a flat surface at a constant speed, it keeps notching up
    and down and its' own, almost like it is playing a sound loop file.

DFF

[peteski]

I'm not sure, Pete, but I'll play with it on the LokProgrammer and see what it can do, mainly out of curiosity.  I am 100% certain that I will redecoderize this locomotive, because I have the exact same symptoms of the complaint in John's post above:


DFF

You could try to read and compare the markings on the large chips on both types of decoder.  The largest one "ATMEL" is the microcontroller (brains of the decoder). That one has a laser etched number burned over the standard factory markings (it shows the specific firmware installed at the factory, but you might still be able to read the actual chip designation). Then the smaller one is made by "winbond". That is the Flash memory that holds the sound data (and maybe some other info).  See if those chip markings (other than the laser etched ones) are the same between the boards. Well, there are date or lot codes also marked on those chips, so there will be some differences.

I don't own any standard size decoders, but on my V4 Micros the ATMEL chip is MEGA644PAMU1626 and winbond is 25032FVIG.  Might be the same on larger format decoders.

The problems described above are serious enough that ESU should be addressing (fixing) them.  I wonder is anybody brought this up to their attention?

[RBrodzinsky]

While the auto-tune functionality for the BEMF is not in the Essential Sound Unit, you can still set all the same parameters manually (CVs51-56)  I would suggest using the settings of a similar loco with a full function ESU in it as a base, and then tune from there.

The latest LokProgrammer software (v5) now fully supports these decoders, and has the up-to-date microcode, which apparently helps a lot (I do not have any of these decoders, so can only report what others have said, elsewhere).

[davefoxx]

While the auto-tune functionality for the BEMF is not in the Essential Sound Unit, you can still set all the same parameters manually (CVs51-56)  I would suggest using the settings of a similar loco with a full function ESU in it as a base, and then tune from there.

The latest LokProgrammer software (v5) now fully supports these decoders, and has the up-to-date microcode, which apparently helps a lot (I do not have any of these decoders, so can only report what others have said, elsewhere).

This being unbeknownst to me, I coincidentally and conveniently updated to the most recent LokProgrammer version this past weekend.  I will say that I was successful in getting a read of the locomotive on the LokProgrammer when I tried to set it up after unboxing it this week.  I did not attempt to update the decoder software or tweak any of the settings once I discovered how basic the options seemed in the LokProgrammer, although I was not aware that there may be a fix in a software update.  I had already read in the instructions about not being able to modify the sound settings on the LokProgrammer, so I did not experiment more at that point.  It was late on a weeknight.  I will mess with it further this weekend, as I intend to replace the decoder and, therefore, have no fear of screwing it up.

DFF

[jdcolombo]

Sometimes good companies make serious mistakes in pursuit of sales.  The "Essentials" decoder is an ESU mistake.  My sense from talking to various sources is that even ESU may now think this was a mistake; Scale Trains appears to think that as well.  Walthers . . . is Walthers.

If you are BMW, you don't produce an equivalent to the Toyota Corolla just because your dealers think they need a cheaper car to sell to customers. 

Dave, I'd swap out the Essentials decoder for a V5.  Monetarily painful, but since I've tossed Bachmann sound decoders (pre-Econami), ripped out a dozen Tsunami I installations, etc. and replaced them all with ESU LokSound Selects or V4's, I'm probably not normal.

John C.

[davefoxx]

Dave, I'd swap out the Essentials decoder for a V5.  Monetarily painful, but since I've tossed Bachmann sound decoders (pre-Econami), ripped out a dozen Tsunami I installations, etc. and replaced them all with ESU LokSound Selects or V4's, I'm probably not normal.

@jdcolombo,

I am right there with you.  I will probably head to the LHS tomorrow after work and get a new decoder.  I was able to put the locomotive on the LokProgrammer tonight, and it did update the firmware from something like 7.0.40 to 7.0.62.  I was able to mess with some settings, but it's really basic and just doesn't fit in with the rest of my fleet.

What surprises me is that ESU is willing to risk their reputation with a crappy decoder.  If I was new into DCC/sound and bought this locomotive, I would be disappointed, despite the initial savings on the locomotive price, and either walk away from DCC/sound or swear off ESU.  I'm sure that's not their intent, but I bet it's happened.  Fortunately for ESU, I am familiar with their usual quality, and they have not lost a customer.

In fact, a few weeks ago, I sent back a V4.0 decoder for warranty repair, and ESU contacted me very quickly and agreed to replace the decoder at no cost.  I didn't think that I caused the decoder to fry, but I wasn't 100% certain.  Since there's no V4.0s left, they stated that if I could wait a few weeks, they would send me a new V5.0.  Sweet.  I'm going to give ESU a pass on the "Essential Sound Decoder."  I also harbor no ill will against Walthers, because I think this GP9 will run very well with a good decoder.

DFF

[Point353]

If you are BMW, you don't produce an equivalent to the Toyota Corolla just because your dealers think they need a cheaper car to sell to customers. 

BMW's cheaper car is called a MINI.

[Onizukachan]

Bmws cheaper car is the 1 series, most minis cost the same as a 3 now a days, and are almost as big as one too!

[peteski]

BMW's cheaper car is called a MINI.

But (unlike the Essential) the Mini comes with some fancy equipment, and is quite lively to drive.  No limits or restrictions.