Surprise!

[Jbub]

It has nothing to do with contacting the dispatcher. when theres a crossing warning maulfunction, the DS should have already ordered a stop and protect on the crossing as theyre the first person contacted by the call desk, even before the maintainer.
Scenario 1 is the maintainer was being a dumbass and acting as a human XR to clear traffic by jumpering up the crossing without protection of any sorts. hes a dumbass for what he did if thats what caused it.
Scenario 2 has to do with plow drivers salting over the railroad crossings and causing our crossing circuits to read high and not even see an approaching train. yes, this is a real thing and as a plow driver, i hope you have been told to not salt over railroad tracks.

Drasko

Yes and yes. We shut off our salters well before the crossing as well as lift our plows to avoid catching the plow edge on the track. Even with taking the precautions of not salting the crossing, cars still carry a fare amount on their undercarriage and after a long storm like this one, these crossings (there's 5 in about 4 miles that do this all the time, 3 of which are in our city) tend to drop the gates when no train is present. Hell these crossings are so sensitive they drop the gates when the weather is nice and sunny and still no train. This is what happened and the gates had been raised by the employee to allow the rather large backup get through. That was confirmed to me by those involved in the investigation, both city employees and UTA employees. UTA did try to blame us stating we salted the tracks but we're trained not to salt the tracks. When you watch the video, you can see the UTA vehicle parked next to the control shed. The employee was inside at the time of the accident. Now the only question I have is if they activated the crossing after the collision to say they were down or did the system activate itself?

[davefoxx]

Hell these crossings are so sensitive they drop the gates when the weather is nice and sunny and still no train.

Boy, this triggered a memory from decades ago.  I vividly recall that when I was little in the mid-1970s and rode the church bus to Sunday School, the gates on Mechanics Valley Road in North East, Maryland were sometimes triggered and there were no trains present.  These gates must have been sensitive, too, because this was on fair weather days.  On more than one occasion, the bus driver would wait, look both ways, and, after a while, drive around the gates.  Oh, and this was on the Northeast Corridor before a bridge was built to replace that level crossing. 

DFF

[draskouasshat]

Yes and yes. We shut off our salters well before the crossing as well as lift our plows to avoid catching the plow edge on the track. Even with taking the precautions of not salting the crossing, cars still carry a fare amount on their undercarriage and after a long storm like this one, these crossings (there's 5 in about 4 miles that do this all the time, 3 of which are in our city) tend to drop the gates when no train is present. Hell these crossings are so sensitive they drop the gates when the weather is nice and sunny and still no train. This is what happened and the gates had been raised by the employee to allow the rather large backup get through. That was confirmed to me by those involved in the investigation, both city employees and UTA employees. UTA did try to blame us stating we salted the tracks but we're trained not to salt the tracks. When you watch the video, you can see the UTA vehicle parked next to the control shed. The employee was inside at the time of the accident. Now the only question I have is if they activated the crossing after the collision to say they were down or did the system activate itself?

That's not how any of this works. It's not a simple thing.
Crossings are very complex and sensitive to moisture,  especially if there's salt with it. If the crossing is salted too much, it will cause a short warning time

Drasko

[Jbub]

That's not how any of this works. It's not a simple thing.
Crossings are very complex and sensitive to moisture,  especially if there's salt with it. If the crossing is salted too much, it will cause a short warning time

Drasko

Adam, instead of telling us all that this doesn't work this way,  explain how it does. We know you do this for a living and several of us have advanced degrees or at the very least have more than just a basic knowledge on how electronics work and will catch on rather quickly. You're a respected modeler here with a lot of hands on knowledge of how the prototype works, but the "you don't know $h1t" comments rub me, as I'm sure others, the wrong way.

[learmoia]

This is the process I'm familiar with.

1: Crossing malfunction is reported train dispatcher / RR emergency call center by police or citizen.
2: Train Dispatcher issues Crossing protection order to crews (in our case GCOR 6.32.2) - Basically - Stop and Flag Crossing.
3: Signal maintainer is called to go check out the crossing.
4: Signal Maintainer fixes crossing.
4a: Any passing train needs to flag the crossing to protect vehicle traffic.
5: Crossing fixed - Bulletin removed - Crews notified, back to normal.

So if a vehicle gets hit while a crossing is reported malfunctioning, blame would most likely go to:
- The Dispatcher - Didn't issue the 6.32.2
- The Train Crew - For not following directions in 6.32.2
I'm at a loss of understanding how the signal maintainer is solely responsible to the point of loosing his job.
-- If he raised the gate to let traffic through, (even if there is a train near by).. the train should have stopped to flag the crossing.

THAT.. is an activation failure, and that is a big deal!.. If I recall, Anytime there is an activation failure reported, report has to be submitted to the FRA within a set # of hours describing the incident.  (In addition to following all of the steps above).

 ~Ian

[nkalanaga]

It doesn't even have to be salt.  Both in Pasco, desert eastern Washington, and here in northeast Kentucky, I've seen crossing flashers activate during the first rain after a long dry spell.  The water and dust, on the ties, combine to short-circuit the detector.

[draskouasshat]

Adam, instead of telling us all that this doesn't work this way,  explain how it does. We know you do this for a living and several of us have advanced degrees or at the very least have more than just a basic knowledge on how electronics work and will catch on rather quickly. You're a respected modeler here with a lot of hands on knowledge of how the prototype works, but the "you don't know $h1t" comments rub me, as I'm sure others, the wrong way.

after rereading my comments, I don't see why you took it that way. theres just some things I wont go into detail about due to my job, and honestly i dont like explaining these things in complete detail, especially the operation of a crossing. I wont explain it all but ill at least tell you its not as simple and easy as people think. Theyre the thing that gets people in the most trouble in the easiest ways. 1 simple jumper gets people killed when taking things out of service. Theyre very complex amd sensitive circuits. In theory, theyre simple IE, train comes, shunts track, crossing provides min 20sec warning time.

The funny part about the advanced degrees, especially electrical engineering majors, when they come to the railroad and see our circuits and voltages used, they always say it technically shouldnt work according to the math and calculated resistance of the track.


nkalanaga-

sand and mud are one thing, salt is a whole differents animal in regards to electricity.


learmoia-

in basic form, that process is close but there are certain things that change what might have happened here. he could have just been driving but the crossing and saw what was happening. out of anyone on the railroad, signalmen can get in trouble the easiest and fired quicker than anyone else. we are held to a higher standard than anyone else and our wages reflect that.


Drasko

[Iain]

Isn't it state law in most states that road vehicles are supposed to stop at all railroad crossings?

[draskouasshat]

Isn't it state law in most states that road vehicles are supposed to stop at all railroad crossings?

if a stop sign is displayed. otherwise they yield to the trains technically. adding crossing gates adds liability on the railroad. all the law requires is a set of crossbucks and then everything would be on the motoring public but the state wants added safety. the state pays for the new crossing and all maintenance.

drasko 

[Jbub]

if a stop sign is displayed. otherwise they yield to the trains technically. adding crossing gates adds liability on the railroad. all the law requires is a set of crossbucks and then everything would be on the motoring public but the state wants added safety. the state pays for the new crossing and all maintenance.

drasko

In Utah if the lights are flashing then it legally is a stop light. Regardless if the gate arm is up or down you cannot proceed past the white line or into the crossing until the lights stop flashing. Also you can't block the crossing just like with an intersection. You would think that's common sense but... let's just say there's not a lot of informed drivers out there.

[Iain]

In Utah if the lights are flashing then it legally is a stop light. Regardless if the gate arm is up or down you cannot proceed past the white line or into the crossing until the lights stop flashing. Also you can't block the crossing just like with an intersection. You would think that's common sense but... let's just say there's not a lot of informed drivers out there.

You'd think that would be covered in driver's ed ...

[Jbub]

You'd think that would be covered in driver's ed ...

It is, but who listens anyway?

[peteski]

It is, but who listens anyway?

Rules are there for a single reason - to be ignored. 

[John]

shunts track, crossing provides min 20sec warning time.

Drasko -- How is the 20 second warning time determined .. max track speed = distance traveled plus some fudge factor?  does a timer also start when the track is shunted so that the gates will raise again after a certain time ..

[John]

Drasko -- How is the 20 second warning time determined .. max track speed = distance traveled plus some fudge factor?  does a timer also start when the track is shunted so that the gates will raise again after a certain time ..

I think I found my answer .. around minute 5