Vintage N Scale....

[strummer]

I've been out of the loop for a while; some serious events and medical issues came up, and now I'm trying to get back to a somewhat "normal" routine, and have been catching up on my Railwire reading.

There's been some great threads regarding older models, and this got me to thinking about something I think I've mentioned before: how much better running the European-based models were than their North American counterparts.

I have 7 German prototype locos; Roco, Arnold and Fleischmann. All (except the Fleischmann, which came to me in pieces and I did the best I could) run almost as nicely as my Kato or Atlas locos. These are all 1970's era models, which I guess makes them "vintage". I had some US-based models of similar vintage, and for the most part, they were..."not too good". These, on the other hand, are very nice indeed.

I think Peteski will back me up on this...

Glad to be back. Mark (still) in Oregon

[peteski]

I've been out of the loop for a while; some serious events and medical issues came up, and now I'm trying to get back to a somewhat "normal" routine, and have been catching up on my Railwire reading.

There's been some great threads regarding older models, and this got me to thinking about something I think I've mentioned before: how much better running the European-based models were than their North American counterparts.

I have 7 German prototype locos; Roco, Arnold and Fleischmann. All (except the Fleischmann, which came to me in pieces and I did the best I could) run almost as nicely as my Kato or Atlas locos. These are all 1970's era models, which I guess makes them "vintage". I had some US-based models of similar vintage, and for the most part, they were..."not too good". These, on the other hand, are very nice indeed.

I think Peteski will back me up on this...

Glad to be back. Mark (still) in Oregon

Sorry to hear about your problems Mark, and I'm glad that you are doing better.

The "almost" in your statement is quite subjective.  I would not compare any of the 70's or even '80s European locos (Diesel) to any of the Atlas or Kato low-friction trucks designs.  While they might run comparably well in modem and high speeds. I don't  think they could be an even match at slow speeds.  The European models use old-fashion 3-pole motors and high-friction truck design.  There is a lot of friction to overcome, to make them run smoothly at very low speeds.  The European models from the yesteryear also  also noisier (with metal gears).

Also remember that most of the US prototype locos sold by Atlas were made by European companies (like Roco, or Rivarossi).  However Rivarossi diesels using those silly transverse-mounted pancake motors (or the vertically mounted motors) are real dogs compared to the European prototypes made by Arnold or Minitrix.

European Steam locos however were IMO better than the U.S. steam models.  Steam locos made by Arnold, Fleischmann, or Minitrix seemed better than all the Rivarossi-made U.S. steam locos.  But the electric pickup was lacking in all those models. At least that's how I see it.

[strummer]

Fair enough, although I guess I was remiss in my original post when I mentioned "Kato and Atlas locos". I should have specified the "made by Kato" Atlas models and newer Chinese-built Atlas and Katos in general.

Perhaps I got lucky, but for the most part these old Roco,Trix and Arnolds run on a par very close to the much newer models we've come to know and love. Not quite was smooth or quiet, but surprisingly close...

In any case, I do enjoy all the recent threads regarding the old stuff; reminds me of what you might read in a Lionel forum!

Mark in Oregon

[DKS]

The "almost" in your statement is quite subjective.  I would not compare any of the 70's or even '80s European locos (Diesel) to any of the Atlas or Kato low-friction trucks designs.  While they might run comparably well in modem and high speeds. I don't  think they could be an even match at slow speeds.  The European models use old-fashion 3-pole motors and high-friction truck design.  There is a lot of friction to overcome, to make them run smoothly at very low speeds.  The European models from the yesteryear also  also noisier (with metal gears).

Also remember that most of the US prototype locos sold by Atlas were made by European companies (like Roco, or Rivarossi).  However Rivarossi diesels using those silly transverse-mounted pancake motors (or the vertically mounted motors) are real dogs compared to the European prototypes made by Arnold or Minitrix.

European Steam locos however were IMO better than the U.S. steam models.  Steam locos made by Arnold, Fleischmann, or Minitrix seemed better than all the Rivarossi-made U.S. steam locos.  But the electric pickup was lacking in all those models. At least that's how I see it.

Just to clarify, I believe the locos with vertical pancake motors were made by Lima. All of Lima's early stuff was pretty much crap, as was most of Arnold's earliest stuff, although Arnold improved pretty quickly. Rivarossi's diesels were made for them by Menhano. The best US locos were Minitrix, at least mechanically; Rivarossi's steam locos were pretty poor, but appearance-wise were some of the best in their day. Fleischmann only ever made European locos, and theirs were outstanding.

I tend to agree that the American locos were second-rate as compared to the European products. I have no explanation for this. It could have been a consequence of a number of factors (motives, like placing profit margins over quality; stuck with only certain manufacturers willing to make American products, etc.) that all just happened to result in lower-grade goods being imported.

[Doug G.]

Yes, the pancake motors were in Lima locos. Rivarossi only had Mehano help them manufacture some of the FM C-Liners early on. Otherwise, the E8 and SW"1500" were made by Rivarossi, directly. Also, all Atlas steamers, except for the 0-6-0 tank - (Mehano) were Rivarossi-made.  The RSC-2, GP40, SD45, and Plymouth WDT were Mehano.

Doug

[peteski]

Yes, you guys are correct of course.  Lima had pancake motors.  I just remembered that these models were marked "Italy" so I attributed it to Rivarossi.  But Rivarossi did use a vertically-installed motor with a worm directly driving the wheelset in a truck.  The unpowered rear truck had pickup shoes rubbing the rail. Sort of like the pickup shoes used by G scale model trains.

[DKS]

...the E8 and SW"1500" were made by Rivarossi, directly....

...Rivarossi did use a vertically-installed motor with a worm directly driving the wheelset in a truck.  The unpowered rear truck had pickup shoes rubbing the rail...

Yes, I forgot about Rivarossi's strange, vertically-motored E8. I had one--awful loco.

[OldEastRR]

RR's F-M C-liner was another vertical motor nightmare.

[peteski]

RR's F-M C-liner was another vertical motor nightmare.

Yeah, I own one of those. 

[DKS]

RR's F-M C-liner was another vertical motor nightmare.

I think I still have 3-4 of them in storage. Gonna be fun selling those... not.

[peteski]

I think I still have 3-4 of them in storage. Gonna be fun selling those... not.

You could always push the nostalgia factor (just like what we are doing here).   

[Doug G.]

You guys hurt me when you talk about Atlas A1G power like that.



Doug

[DKS]

You guys hurt me when you talk about Atlas A1G power like that.

It's done with affection, truly. Where would we be without it?

[Doug G.]

it's OK. I like to have fun with them, too. Like when there's an eBay auction for one and they describe the shell being cracked, not knowing it's cracked because the frame has swollen and cracked it.



Doug

[Point353]

It's done with affection, truly. Where would we be without it?

Following is a list of Atlas A1G locos: http://www.irwinsjournal.com/a1g/a1glocos/
I've had several of them and they never ran as well or for as long as contemporary products from Arnold-Rapido or Con-Cor/Kato.
Where would you be without any of them?