New Kato Poll

[Point353]

Kato does have a Phase Ia GP35 in HO...

Kato also made the GP35 in N scale for Atlas about 25 years ago.

[peteski]

  My 4014 which had run flawlessly for several years at the last train show I attended suddenly locked up, the motor hums, but the drivers do not turn and there appears to be no rods or linkage binding. Based on reports of awful challenger repair I would now not send it back.

Likely slipped universal coupling between the motor and worm. Should be an easy fix.  While Athearn overall design and assembly quality is not as good as Kato, even Kato has problems with cracked universal cups, and axle tubes. They usually do take care of the problem though.

[robert3985]

Bob, while I'm a fan-boy of Kato and I even usually prefer cast-on grabs and ladders on N scale models (especially diesels), I have to concede that no matter how advanced Kato's plastic molds are, some cast-on details just don't look as good as when they are added separately.  Also, the handrails on Kato steam locos use fairly thick shiny steel wire with plastic standoffs which don't look very realistic compared to the ones on Athearn.   Another big peeve of mine is the plastic they use for the crosshead area.  The silver plastic has a totally different shade than the metal valve gear and rods.  They need to better match the metallic color of the plastic to the metal parts.  Fleischmann locos use similar design and they match the color of the plastic parts much better.

And if you want a Big Boy with a non-articulated rear engine, my Sakatsu brass model is built that way.  And the front engine's pivot is at the correct location too (at its rear).

Wellll...dear Mr. Peteski Curmudgeon...as I stated in my post, the only N-scale Big Boys that didn't have the rear engine articulated were the brass ones.  I had about half a dozen brass ones, and although they looked really good if you decided to super detail the Hell out of 'em...with that wonderful characteristic boiler overhang (the rear-engine articulated ones just don't look right when they're on a curve)...they still would only pull about 13 cars.  No kidding.

I actually went and measured several handrails on a real FEF-2 on display at Ogden Union Station, and they were all covered with glossy black paint...so the shininess isn't non-prototypical.  Also, I was quite surprised at the diameter of both the stand-offs and the railings themselves as being much thicker than what I had assumed they would be.  I guess that's because U.P., to keep their prize-babies sleek, would use them as electrical conduits as well as something for the crews walking on the running boards to hang on to.  Of particular note is that the cast-plastic grab railings on the Kato tender, which look quite oversized, are only about a scale 1/4" too big in diameter...which isn't significant.  The one area where it's pretty obvious the supporting structures are too thick are the smoke-lifter braces, which connect the tops of the smoke-lifters to the smokebox and boiler.  On my brass FEF's the bottoms of the brass smoke lifters are soldered to the running boards, but the thin brass upper supports are just pressed against the sides of the smokebox and boiler.  What happens here, is although they look great, if the engine is handled a lot...even carefully, the upper braces don't really serve any function other than being cosmetic, and eventually the constant bending of the solder joint between the smoke-lifters and the running boards causes the joint to fail.  I'm planning on thinning up Kato's version quite a bit, which will be easy to do and improve their appearance drastically. Another minus on the Kato FEF-3 is that the lettering is white.  It should be aluminum, as all U.P. steam engines that were black had aluminum colored lettering.

However, there are plenty of details on the Athearn Big Boys and Challengers that are also oversized, or the wrong color, such as the smokebox, painted in that awful metallic silvery color, when it should be a dull grey...like S.P. Lettering Gray actually, and the rods and valve gear along with the crossheads and supports aren't the right color either since Big Boys were lubed automatically, and the superheated steam (around 900 deg. F)  in the cylinders caused the low-tech lubricants of the time to turn a nice reddish brown before the lube caught on fire.  Not unusual to see a Big Boy, Challenger or FEF with a lubrication fire going on in the neighborhood of the cylinders as one video of a Big Boy emerging from Hermosa Tunnel made the commentator pretty excited to see there was something on fire on the front set of cylinders.  Just normal, everyday operation on Otto Jabelmann designed steam engines! But, for somebody wanting to get the colors right on their model, they'll have to do it themselves because it ain't gonna be right coming from the factory...from ANY factory... 

Obviously, both Kato's and Athearn's U.P. steam have their pluses and minuses.  However, Kato's engineering as far as how the model goes together and the way it grips the rails is phenomenal...just top-of-the-line.  The Athearn engines are scaled-down knock-offs of their twentieth century tech HO scale equivalents, and although they look pretty good (if you don't look too close..) they use too many typical model railroader conventions such as painting them that plasticky semi-flat black instead of glossy like the prototypes were (letting us weather them to whatever degree we want) and engineering them (at the expense of their appearance and spotting feature detailing) to go around ultra-sharp track radii by blatantly articulating the rear engine and  spacing the tender waaaay to far from the back of the cab.  With the Kato FEF-3...the very first thing that jumped out at me, was the correctly profiled lead truck wheels!  WOW!  Why no other manufacturer has ever took the time to get that right is beyond me...even brass models are guilty. Secondly, there's no daylight between the bottom of the firebox and the top of the trailing truck!  WOW!..and the tender looks to be about the correct distance from the back of the cab, even though there's no tender apron to complete the look.

So, you and I can gnit-pick these models to death if we wish, but IMHO, I'm pretty happy with both of 'em, even admitting freely they're not "perfect"...but certainly at the top of the mountain for plastic N-scale steam.

If Kato designs their Big Boy with the same finesse as they did their FEF-3, I'll be very happy.  If they decide to do just a little extra in the areas I mentioned earlier...this model could be "it"...the best N-scale steam ever produced. 

C'mon Mr. Kato...take the effort and do it "right" and let this be your signature effort.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Wellll...dear Mr. Peteski Curmudgeon...as I stated in my post, the only N-scale Big Boys that didn't have the rear engine articulated were the brass ones.  I had about half a dozen brass ones, and although they looked really good if you decided to super detail the Hell out of 'em...with that wonderful characteristic boiler overhang (the rear-engine articulated ones just don't look right when they're on a curve)...they still would only pull about 13 cars.  No kidding.

Hmm . .  you had to "super detail the Hell out of 'em" your brass Big Boys?  Usually brass steam engine models have lots of details on their surface.  My Sakatsu Big Boy has lots of factory installed details on it.  I guarantee that it has more details than the possible future Kato Big Boy will have. 

But like you said, the mechanism desing and the pulling power is poor (typical for a brass engine).  I'm sure that possible future Kato's Big Boy will be excellent puller (just like the GS-4 and FEFs are).

I actually went and measured several handrails on a real FEF-2 on display at Ogden Union Station, and they were all covered with glossy black paint...so the shininess isn't non-prototypical.  Also, I was quite surprised at the diameter of both the stand-offs and the railings themselves as being much thicker than what I had assumed they would be. 

Um Bob, did you take a good look at your Kato locos?  Those wire handrails on GS-4 and FEFs are shiny silver stainless steel (not black).  Not very realistic.  That is one of the details that I am disappointed in on those otherwise excellent models.

But you convinced me: if Kato makes the Big Boy, I'll dump my brass, Rivarossi, and Athearn models.   

[Ngineer]

Can somebody please give Mr. Mr. Hiroshi Kato some information and a nice brochure on the North Coast Limited?

Sorry for sounding like a broken record. But I am still hoping they will produce one in the near future.

And if Kato really is aiming for a big loco, they should manufacture the Great Northern W-1. It beats the GG1 and the Little Joe.

   Javier

[robert3985]

Hmm . .  you had to "super detail the Hell out of 'em" your brass Big Boys?  Usually brass steam engine models have lots of details on their surface.  My Sakatsu Big Boy has lots of factory installed details on it.  I guarantee that it has more details than the possible future Kato Big Boy will have. 

But like you said, the mechanism desing and the pulling power is poor (typical for a brass engine).  I'm sure that possible future Kato's Big Boy will be excellent puller (just like the GS-4 and FEFs are).

Um Bob, did you take a good look at your Kato locos?  Those wire handrails on GS-4 and FEFs are shiny silver stainless steel (not black).  Not very realistic.  That is one of the details that I am disappointed in on those otherwise excellent models.

But you convinced me: if Kato makes the Big Boy, I'll dump my brass, Rivarossi, and Athearn models.   

Peter...actually, it's been a while since I've looked closely at either my GS-4's or my Kato FEF-3's...so no, I don't recall the grabs being shiny silver.  If they really bother me, I'll just paint 'em.

Oh yes...I did detail the Hell out of my brass Big Boys...here's a good example which I've posted before, and I can guarantee you that not a single one of any brass N-scale Big Boy has this level of detail....

Photo (1) - Brass Big Boy superdetailed by me using an old Model Railroader multi-issue article called "The Art of Superdetailing" as my main reference.  The author used an HO scale Big Boy as the model to improve and included many drawings of brackets and piping.  He did neglect paint and lettering which I derived from numerous photos of the prototype and reference books in my library:







Interestingly, some detailing on the Athearn model are better than the stock brass Key model, such as the re-located aftercoolers inside the pilot and the better relief on the recessed grabs over the side cab windows.  Rivet details are crisper on the Athearn model too, but the big insulated steam pipes attached to the rear cylinder/valve assemblies on the brass model really catches this distinctive detail much better than the floating pipes on rear-engine articulated N-scale Big Boys...which allows the rear engine to pivot unrealistically.  What I did on my brass models was mainly to remove etched piping and replace it with round brass wire, and grind off cast-on grabs and replace those with brass wire.  I also machined the small valves around the whistle on top of the smokebox and back at the dynamo...and add conduit and conduit boxes where they were prominently visible.  I also added missing details, such as the brake cylinders on the trailing truck, and the lube lines there too.  The tender got brackets for the wood coal bin extension, separate grabs for the water hatches, the water pipe/squirter over the central red warning lamp used to keep wooden boxcars directly behind the engine from catching on fire from hot coal embers...and I also added all the hooks, terminal boxes and grabs that weren't on the brass model...as well as replace the etched piping on the bottom of both sides of the tender with round wire.  Lastly, I added a fireman and engineer in the cab and glazed the windows.  I still wish I would have machined out the recessed grabs over the cab window and made them fully 3D, but I did open the vent in the top of the cab, which in photos is almost always open.

So yeah...lots and lots of added details to my Key brass Big Boys...over a hundred parts easily per engine.  I only completed two of them, then Athearn came out with theirs, which I bought one to test it, and it pulled exponentially better than any of my brass ones that I decided to sell my brass ones...a decision that I don't regret one whit today.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[mike_lawyer]

I like big steam as much as anyone else, but I would just be happy with a USRA heavy 2-10-2 that is the proper size (unlike the Con-Cor one from years ago that was too long).  That would provide a great platform for a bunch of kitbashes, such as a 2-10-4 (C&O T1s and PRR J1s come to mind) as well as PRR N2s. 

The great thing about the Kato Mikado is that it is a generic mechanism that can be modified into so many different locomotives for specific roads.  Give me a Kato 2-10-2 mechanism and a lot can be done with it.   

[sundowner]

UP has a 2-10-2 5511 in the roundhouse in Cheyenne. Maybe get Mr Kato to check it out, it suppose to be in great condition and it seating next to 838. Supposely UP wont restore it to running condition because its to slow.

[peteski]

UP has a 2-10-2 5511 in the roundhouse in Cheyenne.

Meh.  Not as impressive as a Big Boy. 

[C855B]

UP has a 2-10-2 5511 in the roundhouse in Cheyenne. ...  Supposedly UP won't restore it to running condition because its to slow.

According to Steve Lee (heritage shops manager at the time I took these photos), it wasn't so much the slow issues, as he put it, "those small drivers beat the track to s---!" IOW, the dynamic stresses of heavy rods and equally heavy counterweights aren't compatible with modern CWR and precision track alignment techniques. Track department said absolutely not. The more modern designs of the operating fleet aren't nearly as abusive.

[Cajonpassfan]

Well, nothing is as impressive as a Big Boy.
Let's just not bother modeling anything else
Otto K.

[peteski]

Well, nothing is as impressive as a Big Boy.
Let's just not bother modeling anything else
Otto K.

You totally missed my point. I would love to see one of those 2-10-2s (or even 4-12-2), but let's face it, manufacturers (like Kato) usually go for the flashier or more impressive models.  That's what I was saying.

I voted for the Li'l Joe.

[rodsup9000]

(or even 2-12-2),

 I hope you meant 4-12-2 UP type

 I hope to have a 2-10-2 chassis in a few months.

[peteski]

I hope you meant 4-12-2 UP type

 I hope to have a 2-10-2 chassis in a few months.

Yes, I did. Thanks.

[Point353]

Well, nothing is as impressive as a Big Boy.

Beg to differ: