Author Topic: Something Vintage This Way Comes...  (Read 13319 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 32945
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +5338
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2019, 02:30:23 AM »
0
Maybe regular use is enough to keep it clean, so it didn't need to be aggressively cleaned. 

I Googled the conductivity issue, and the first site that popped up had this.  Apparently, the oxide coating on bulk aluminum doesn't prevent contact, although bulk aluminum oxide is an insulator.  Again, not as bad as it sounds, as the oxide coating is self-limiting, unlike brass or steel.

"Alain Celzard
University of Lorraine
Aluminium is a highly reducing metal, and because of this, it spontaneously oxidises in air. Fortunately, the alumina barrier which is formed is almost totally impervious, so oxidation is nearly completely stopped. Fortunately, otherwise aluminium would burn spontaneously in air. Moreover, Al powder is pyrophoric, i.e. can be very dangerous when exposed abruptly to air. But bulk Al is just covered by a very thin Al2O3 layer, and this is the reason why pure Al is never shiny. Alumina is an electronic insulator, but becomes ionic conductor at high temperature. Because it is very thin over its metal, alumina doesn't prevent electric conduction, but just add a contact resistance. Conduction takes place throughout alumina by tunnelling effect."

Aluminum would burn spontaneously in air?  That sounds really strange.  I know that Wikipedia is often not highly regarded as a reference, but I looked anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium  Funny, it specifically shows: " It is nonmagnetic and does not easily ignite."

It's the Internet - oh, what to believe?   :)

. . . 42 . . .

nkalanaga

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 9895
  • Respect: +1446
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2019, 03:46:34 AM »
0
Bulk aluminum melts, but doesn't burn.  Powdered aluminum is extremely flammable, and is used in solid-fuel rocket motors.  The solid boosters for the space shuttle burned a mixture of powdered aluminum and oxidizer.

From Wikipedia:
"The rocket propellant mixture in each solid rocket motor consisted of ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer, 69.6% by weight), atomized aluminum powder (fuel, 16%), iron oxide (catalyst, 0.4%), PBAN (binder, also acts as fuel, 12.04%), and an epoxy curing agent (1.96%).[8][9] This propellant is commonly referred to as Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant, or simply APCP. This mixture gave the solid rocket motors a specific impulse of 242 seconds (2.37 km/s) at sea level or 268 seconds (2.63 km/s) in a vacuum. "

And, from https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/14008 Aluminum Powder, Uncoated"
"Air & Water Reactions
Highly flammable. Produces flammable gases and heat on contact with water. May ignite on contact with water or moist air.
Fire Hazard
Excerpt from ERG Guide 138 [Substances - Water-Reactive (Emitting Flammable Gases)]:
Produce flammable gases on contact with water. May ignite on contact with water or moist air. Some react vigorously or explosively on contact with water. May be ignited by heat, sparks or flames. May re-ignite after fire is extinguished. Some are transported in highly flammable liquids. Runoff may create fire or explosion hazard. (ERG, 2016)
Reactivity Profile
ALUMINUM POWDER, UNCOATED is a reducing agent. Reacts very exothermically when mixed with metal oxides and ignited or heated (thermite process)."

Then lists a bunch of other stuff it also reacts with.  Like iron, and unlike copper, aluminum is NEVER found as a metal in nature.  The only "pure" iron found on Earth is meteorites, and even those will have an oxide crust.  Powdered iron will also burn, but it isn't nearly as reactive as aluminum.

 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 03:59:11 AM by nkalanaga »
N Kalanaga
Be well

Jbub

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1849
  • Gender: Male
  • HP 9999
  • Respect: +584
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2019, 02:22:24 PM »
0
Bulk aluminum melts, but doesn't burn.  Powdered aluminum is extremely flammable, and is used in solid-fuel rocket motors.  The solid boosters for the space shuttle burned a mixture of powdered aluminum and oxidizer.

From Wikipedia:
"The rocket propellant mixture in each solid rocket motor consisted of ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer, 69.6% by weight), atomized aluminum powder (fuel, 16%), iron oxide (catalyst, 0.4%), PBAN (binder, also acts as fuel, 12.04%), and an epoxy curing agent (1.96%).[8][9] This propellant is commonly referred to as Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant, or simply APCP. This mixture gave the solid rocket motors a specific impulse of 242 seconds (2.37 km/s) at sea level or 268 seconds (2.63 km/s) in a vacuum. "

And, from https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/14008 Aluminum Powder, Uncoated"
"Air & Water Reactions
Highly flammable. Produces flammable gases and heat on contact with water. May ignite on contact with water or moist air.
Fire Hazard
Excerpt from ERG Guide 138 [Substances - Water-Reactive (Emitting Flammable Gases)]:
Produce flammable gases on contact with water. May ignite on contact with water or moist air. Some react vigorously or explosively on contact with water. May be ignited by heat, sparks or flames. May re-ignite after fire is extinguished. Some are transported in highly flammable liquids. Runoff may create fire or explosion hazard. (ERG, 2016)
Reactivity Profile
ALUMINUM POWDER, UNCOATED is a reducing agent. Reacts very exothermically when mixed with metal oxides and ignited or heated (thermite process)."

Then lists a bunch of other stuff it also reacts with.  Like iron, and unlike copper, aluminum is NEVER found as a metal in nature.  The only "pure" iron found on Earth is meteorites, and even those will have an oxide crust.  Powdered iron will also burn, but it isn't nearly as reactive as aluminum.
Aluminum oxide is also used in thermite
"Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!"

Darth Vader

nkalanaga

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 9895
  • Respect: +1446
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2019, 02:49:47 PM »
0
Jbub:  Interesting.  I wonder what its purpose is?  It can't be fuel, because, as an oxide, it's already "burned".  Some type of catalyst, maybe? 

Or is it "oxidized coarsely powdered" aluminum, and the oxide coating stabilizes the unoxidized portion inside the particles?  That would make sense, as it would make the product safer to handle, and when ignited, the aluminum particles would still burn.
N Kalanaga
Be well

Jbub

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1849
  • Gender: Male
  • HP 9999
  • Respect: +584
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2019, 03:58:09 PM »
0
Jbub:  Interesting.  I wonder what its purpose is?  It can't be fuel, because, as an oxide, it's already "burned".  Some type of catalyst, maybe? 

Or is it "oxidized coarsely powdered" aluminum, and the oxide coating stabilizes the unoxidized portion inside the particles?  That would make sense, as it would make the product safer to handle, and when ignited, the aluminum particles would still burn.
Sorry, I was incorrect. Aluminum Powder and Iron Oxide (basically rust) are used and the resulting product is Iron and Aluminum Oxide.
"Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!"

Darth Vader

SF Chief

  • Posts: 21
  • Respect: +6
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2019, 05:04:51 PM »
+1
Having nothing to do with flammable aluminum powder or vintage N-scale, just want to say that that I really like WM3793's Cumberland station on his small, developing layout.  Is that kit or scratchbuilt?  It's really nicely done.  Rick

DKS

  • The Pitt
  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 13424
  • Respect: +7026
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2019, 05:19:44 PM »
+1
Having nothing to do with flammable aluminum powder or vintage N-scale, just want to say that that I really like WM3793's Cumberland station on his small, developing layout.  Is that kit or scratchbuilt?  It's really nicely done.  Rick

Scratch. I can say this because I did the dormers for him. And another member helped with the windows. (Not to detract from @wm3798 's modeling in the slightest...)

 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 06:10:07 PM by David K. Smith »

Mike C

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1033
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +162
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2019, 06:17:50 PM »
0
Aluminum would burn spontaneously in air?  That sounds really strange.  I know that Wikipedia is often not highly regarded as a reference, but I looked anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium  Funny, it specifically shows: " It is nonmagnetic and does not easily ignite."

It's the Internet - oh, what to believe?   :)

  Funny story ...I worked for a plastic compounder in the 80's . A couple times one of the mixers would stand on the edge of the platform about 20 ft in the air . Another guy would stand under him with a Bic lighter . Quite a spictacular flame trail , and probably a bit dangerous .....

wm3798

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 16124
  • Gender: Male
  • I like models. She likes antiques. Perfect!
  • Respect: +6467
    • Western Maryland Railway Western Lines
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2019, 09:49:54 PM »
+1
Thanks for all the science guys.  Now back to practical application of all this
metallurgy.
I made a dozen sets of wired joiners tonight!


Lee
Rockin' It Old School

Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

DKS

  • The Pitt
  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 13424
  • Respect: +7026
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2019, 10:46:14 AM »
0
I made a dozen sets of wired joiners tonight!

A few every night?

wm3798

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 16124
  • Gender: Male
  • I like models. She likes antiques. Perfect!
  • Respect: +6467
    • Western Maryland Railway Western Lines
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2019, 11:02:29 AM »
0
At my age, you do what you can when you can... :facepalm:  And you certainly avoid making promises that you can't keep! :D

Lee
Rockin' It Old School

Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

Doug G.

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1099
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +43
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2019, 12:43:53 PM »
0
Or starting something you can't finish.

:D

Doug
Atlas First Generation Motive Power and Treble-O-Lectric. Click on the link:
www.irwinsjournal.com/a1g/a1glocos/

DKS

  • The Pitt
  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 13424
  • Respect: +7026
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2019, 03:59:46 PM »
0
Or starting something you can't finish.

:D

Doug

Hey! I (strongly) resemble that remark...

wm3798

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 16124
  • Gender: Male
  • I like models. She likes antiques. Perfect!
  • Respect: +6467
    • Western Maryland Railway Western Lines
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2019, 05:11:26 PM »
0
The trick is not to finish too soon... :trollface:
Rockin' It Old School

Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 32945
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +5338
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Something Vintage This Way Comes...
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2019, 05:13:37 PM »
0
The trick is not to finish too soon... :trollface:

Too soon for what?   :trollface: :D
. . . 42 . . .