Train collision west of Cheyenne Wy.

[Jbub]

https://www.kgwn.tv/content/news/Train-derailment-closes-Frontage-Road-west-of-Cheyenne-495241031.html

Sad to hear there is one dead and another missing. I thought this line was upgraded to PTC, I'm curious to what happend.

[draskouasshat]

UP is further behind on PTC than BNSF and we just recently made the first train trip from LA to Chicago under full PTC operation. Were leading the pack on this.

PTC would have prevented this, so would the train crews ability to do their jobs.

[Curtis Kyger]

Full disclosure: I am a retired former UP employee.

Derailments are caused by any of the following cause:  operating [crew or dispatching], engineering [track or signal] or mechanical [locomotives and cars].
At this point the reporter is only saying what her impression of the aftermath of the accident appeared to look like.
Unless you are reacting to additional information, it is way to early to jump to any conclusion about PTC.  As example, was this on double track where a derailed car or shifted load could have caused the problem?

[Jbub]

This was on another new outlet

According to Lt. Don Hollingshead of the Laramie County Sheriff's Department, the derailment was reported around 7:45 p.m. and involved two eastbound Union Pacific trains, one of which is believed to have rear-ended the other. The crash occurred about 18 miles west of Cheyenne.
Hollingshead says four UP employees were in the crash, one of whom is reported to have been killed. One other person is missing and the other two were not  seriously injured. The person who died and the missing person are believed to have been in the engine of the train which struck the other from behind. No evacuations have been ordered. The cargo on the trains was reportedly "mixed."

http://kgab.com/breaking-at-least-one-dead-in-laramie-county-train-derailment/

Looking at google maps at exit 345 on I-80 it is double track next to the freeway. There is a signal with new (different color) gravel around the base about a half mile west of the exit. That makes me assume it's a PTC compliant signal as I know they've done a lot of signal work between Ogden and Cheyenne over the last few years.

[draskouasshat]

Full disclosure: I am a retired former UP employee.

Derailments are caused by any of the following cause:  operating [crew or dispatching], engineering [track or signal] or mechanical [locomotives and cars].
At this point the reporter is only saying what her impression of the aftermath of the accident appeared to look like.
Unless you are reacting to additional information, it is way to early to jump to any conclusion about PTC.  As example, was this on double track where a derailed car or shifted load could have caused the problem?

Ill just say i deal with PTC, a LOT, and unless this was a car that jumped the track,  the likelihood that PTC would have prevented this is through the roof.
Jbub, just because fresh rock had been installed around a signal doesn't make it a signal with ptc added to it. UP was doing more "make ptc work with the old junk" than installing new signal systems. Hell im installing an entirely new system on a sub right now that won't have ptc installed as its not a key route required to have it.
What i do know is this, most rearend collisions are caused by operator error. Trainman do love to try and post the blame on signal, but luckily our equipment records everything and they're proven wrong pretty easily.

Drasko

[draskouasshat]

Also, the amount of testing that takes place with a new signal system is very very very very intensive. The stuff we have now is tested multiple times even before it goes out into the field so if it was a new signal, with ptc or not, it makes it even more likely that this was operator error.
If that's an operating CTC signal system, dispatchers really cause collisions anymore unless you give permission to someone to throw a handthrow switch in front of a train but luckily, many handthrows have been replaced with electric locks that prevent throwing a switch in front of traffic.

Drasko

[Jbub]

I get what you're saying about the rock. The reason I assume that it's PTC is that all the signals and boxes have been replaced and PTC antennae installed from Ogden Utah to Green River Wyoming and old equipment has been removed for the most part. This is the same line just west of Cheyenne. Regardless to which signal system was in place here the loss of life is sad.
I am curious though, have all mainline locomotives been converted to ptc?

[draskouasshat]

I get what you're saying about the rock. The reason I assume that it's PTC is that all the signals and boxes have been replaced and PTC antennae installed from Ogden Utah to Green River Wyoming and old equipment has been removed for the most part. This is the same line just west of Cheyenne. Regardless to which signal system was in place here the loss of life is sad.
I am curious though, have all mainline locomotives been converted to ptc?

that depends on the railroad. railroad to railroad compatibility hasn't been taken care of yet either

[pedro]

While we’re on a PTC tangent, it’s worth noting that PTC doesn’t prevent two trains from colliding, per se. It only protects them from running a red absolute signal, enforces speed restrictions, protects work zones, among other things. A train can still pass a restricting signal (or get talked by a red absolute) and run into another train at restricted speed. It doesn’t “know” where the other train is, just that the block is occupied. Very much a work in progress.

That being said, it’s a real leap forward, and surprisingly, the operating crafts are pretty much 100% in agreement that they’d rather have it than not, despite initial resistance. (Railroaders HATE change) When I have equipment that won’t initialize and am told, “run without it,” I’m constantly on edge. This on a system that’s been in operation barely a year. Future advancements will fix a lot of the shortcomings.

[jagged ben]

Doesn't restricted speed, by definition, mean that you can stop within sight of any obstacle?

[nkalanaga]

It did on the UP in 1967.  From the 1967 "Consolidated Code of Operating Rules":

"RESTRICTED SPEED -- Proceed prepared to stop short of train, engine, obstruction, or switch not properly lined, looking out for broken rail or anything that may require the speed of a train or engine to be reduced, but not exceeding 20 MPH."

REDUCED SPEED, on the other hand, simply says "Proceed prepared to stop short of train, engine, or obstruction."  No specific speed limit imposed.

[pedro]

Doesn't restricted speed, by definition, mean that you can stop within sight of any obstacle?

Well, yeah. But it’s still up to the engineer to do so. The point was that PTC is not going to stop you from running into another train while operating at restricted speed. It only enforces the max. speed of 20.

[peteski]

Well, yeah. But it’s still up to the engineer to do so. The point was that PTC is not going to stop you from running into another train while operating at restricted speed. It only enforces the max. speed of 20.

You mean that the the new-fangled PTC think is not like those adaptive cruise control or automatic braking thingies they put in automobiles nowadays? That's lame! Boo-hiss!     Maybe self-driving trains would solve all of out problems?  The crew could just sit back and enjoy the ride (until someone hacks the system and does unmentionable things). 

[jagged ben]

My point was that, given the deaths and the accordioned train, it seems implausible that the accident  happened at restricted speed.  It seems like either it wasn't PTC territory, or PTC failed.

[Jbub]

My point was that, given the deaths and the accordioned train, it seems implausible that the accident  happened at restricted speed.  It seems like either it wasn't PTC territory, or PTC failed.

What I'm gathering from draskoasshat is that even if the line was ptc compliant, that doesn't mean the locos were.This line is double track from Cheyenne to Salt Lake city with a lot of traffic. I've seen the upgrading to ptc over the course of 3 years and now the old equipment is being removed. I'm assuming that his comment about the first ptc train from LA to Chicago was successful recently went through this area. It is the COLA/ Overland route at all.