Sometimes it's hard to be an N scaler

[OldEastRR]

I'm not abandoning N scale, the NH, or model railroading. I'm saying it's not fun being the minority market.
Sorry to complain. I realize TRW is a sunshine and roses place where never is heard a discouraging word so I should shut up and run trains.
FTR, I chose to model the PRR passenger scene starting back in the early 1990's. For you memory whizzes in N you can remember other than the generic Pullman heavyweights there were exactly TWO prototype lightweight cars for the Pennsy: the RR observation ("View") and a 10-6 used for MP pool service (and I was doing only NYC-CHI trains). A few years later KATO brought out the Super Chief and I was able to snag the ATSF sleeper that ran in the BL.
But it was the challenge of trying to make trains that at least looked like the BL, the Pennsylvania LTd, Fort Pitt, Admiral, etc that was my goal. This entailed making my own REA 50' reefers (using some crude cast pewter trucks) and then badgering MicroScale to make REA decals -- can you believe that they went 20+ years before making ANY REA decals in any scale?
And then ... KATO brings out the complete Broadway Limited 1949 and .. well, the challenge disappeared. Plus the IM P85s, and even for god's sake the COLA so I could get the 10-6 pool car. The only things left to do as turn the various Lima and RR heavyweights into 14 sections and 8-1-2s, PB70s and modernized P7os.
I paid my dues for scratchbuilding/kitbashing efforts. But doing Pennsy stuff was over for me.
Switching to the NH gave me back the same challenge as the PRR did. When I started THAT, there was the DL109 and other locos used by more railroads. NO passenger equipment. Refering to the list Bryan gave every single one of the passenger cars he lists were released in the last decade or less. Since my layout is passenger train heavy the freight car options were adequate. (But again, finding NH-lettered stuff wasn't easy before 10 years ago). Still, I had to make the NH 40' gons out of the Atlas 42' ones, painted and decal most of my PS-1s, rework paint and decal correct 40' FGE steel plug doors, and MTL hoppers, GHQ center depressed, etc.
And then I started trying to turn KATO RDC shells into the NH streamlined cars. (If you don't think that's much effort try making an NH 200 series baggage-lounge out of one). I rebuilt a KATO PRR 10-6 into a 14-4 with ESM sides (Yes, rearranged the interior too and changed the underbody detail).
But now the "pennsy passenger curse" has struck again -- at least partly. I'm grateful MTL made heavyweights I can use. And Rapido made the Osgood-Bradley cars, and a the 8600 coaches. If they come out with the 200-300-400 series-type smokers I'll be extremely happy. Despite Mr. Bussey's claims to the opposite, it's not easy to turn an 8600 coach with it's twin vestibules and different window placement into a single vestibule shifted window smoker. Of no doubt easy for him, since he has apparently a mini-manufacturing/rebuildshop  complex at his disposal, but I'm not that fortunate. (Really, MY plans for these cars show the windows do not match up in alignment car-side to car-side).
If Mr. Bussey would get ESM to re-issue/re-make the NH 6-4-6 and 6-BL sides again using his considerable workshop capabilities and influence in the model RR manufacturing world, that'd be great.

[craigolio1]

It is clearly the intent of Rapido that we spend the time between now and Christmas speculating on what N scale diner they will be producing.

Just to kick off, I would assume one of 2. a) same NH one they are doing in HO; b) one of the 1950s era CN cars (I forget the number series) that would work with their previously released CN cars.  If the latter, I will place one of the 3 pre-orders you will ever get for one in GTW 1954.  OR, please pull one of the 1954 CN cars out before lettering, and I will decal my own.

Idly speculating on stuff they will never make is much more fun than griping about stuff they haven't made yet.

They are announcing the Canadian.... because I’m a few days away from finishing mine.

[bbussey]

I'm not abandoning N scale, the NH, or model railroading. I'm saying it's not fun being the minority market.
Sorry to complain. I realize TRW is a sunshine and roses place where never is heard a discouraging word so I should shut up and run trains.
FTR, I chose to model the PRR passenger scene starting back in the early 1990's. For you memory whizzes in N you can remember other than the generic Pullman heavyweights there were exactly TWO prototype lightweight cars for the Pennsy: the RR observation ("View") and a 10-6 used for MP pool service (and I was doing only NYC-CHI trains). A few years later KATO brought out the Super Chief and I was able to snag the ATSF sleeper that ran in the BL.
But it was the challenge of trying to make trains that at least looked like the BL, the Pennsylvania LTd, Fort Pitt, Admiral, etc that was my goal. This entailed making my own REA 50' reefers (using some crude cast pewter trucks) and then badgering MicroScale to make REA decals -- can you believe that they went 20+ years before making ANY REA decals in any scale?
And then ... KATO brings out the complete Broadway Limited 1949 and .. well, the challenge disappeared. Plus the IM P85s, and even for god's sake the COLA so I could get the 10-6 pool car. The only things left to do as turn the various Lima and RR heavyweights into 14 sections and 8-1-2s, PB70s and modernized P7os.
I paid my dues for scratchbuilding/kitbashing efforts. But doing Pennsy stuff was over for me.
Switching to the NH gave me back the same challenge as the PRR did. When I started THAT, there was the DL109 and other locos used by more railroads. NO passenger equipment. Refering to the list Bryan gave every single one of the passenger cars he lists were released in the last decade or less. Since my layout is passenger train heavy the freight car options were adequate. (But again, finding NH-lettered stuff wasn't easy before 10 years ago). Still, I had to make the NH 40' gons out of the Atlas 42' ones, painted and decal most of my PS-1s, rework paint and decal correct 40' FGE steel plug doors, and MTL hoppers, GHQ center depressed, etc.
And then I started trying to turn KATO RDC shells into the NH streamlined cars. (If you don't think that's much effort try making an NH 200 series baggage-lounge out of one). I rebuilt a KATO PRR 10-6 into a 14-4 with ESM sides (Yes, rearranged the interior too and changed the underbody detail).
But now the "pennsy passenger curse" has struck again -- at least partly. I'm grateful MTL made heavyweights I can use. And Rapido made the Osgood-Bradley cars, and a the 8600 coaches. If they come out with the 200-300-400 series-type smokers I'll be extremely happy. Despite Mr. Bussey's claims to the opposite, it's not easy to turn an 8600 coach with it's twin vestibules and different window placement into a single vestibule shifted window smoker. Of no doubt easy for him, since he has apparently a mini-manufacturing/rebuildshop  complex at his disposal, but I'm not that fortunate. (Really, MY plans for these cars show the windows do not match up in alignment car-side to car-side).
If Mr. Bussey would get ESM to re-issue/re-make the NH 6-4-6 and 6-BL sides again using his considerable workshop capabilities and influence in the model RR manufacturing world, that'd be great.

Since you sited me by name, I'll address some of your points again.

Aside from the fact that you chose to model the NH and should have known at the time what the equipment availability was ... you're undermining your own argument when you admit to all of the NH prototype N scale models that exist today.  Who cares if the bulk of them hit the market within the last decade?  They are here now.  I was modeling NH back in the 1980s and 1990s also, and there was NH decorated equipment available.  Was all of it prototypical? No, it was not.  But some of it was, and there were good fillers until better options came along.  The DL109 existed, as you mentioned, as did the RS-3, RS-11, GP-9 (all Atlas/Kato); PA1, FA1, RDC-1, and various brass models including Washboard commuter cars and NE-2 cabooses.  Kadee/MTL released multitudes of their models painted for NH in the 1980s and 1990s.  NH was one of the roads represented in the Kadee "Original 9" PS-1 boxcars.  If there is a prototype you really wanted then or want now, utilize your modeling skills.  I kitbashed my two NE-4 cabooses circa 1990 from two Kadee 50000-series cabooses, Evergreen styrene, X-Acto #11, super glue, Accu-Paint, Badger airbrush and Clover House dry transfers.  One of them won an N-Trak model contest in 1994.  The more models you build, the easier it becomes.

Regarding passenger equipment — You complained about Rapido not releasing the 8500s in N.  I gave you two options: either kitbash a 8200 into an 8500 (simple) or swap in an 8600 interior (real simple).  Yes, the fluted cars are going to be tougher.  But having the 8600 as a basis for fluted baggages, parlors, grill cars and diners makes things much easier than building them from scratch.  In all likelihood, Rapido isn't going to release the 8500 or the other fluted cars in N, as the demand doesn't warrant the tooling/production expense.  So the only way to get them is to stop complaining and kitbash them.  And to be honest, if you have 8200s and 8600s only running in your passenger consists, most railroaders familiar with the northeast will instantly identify the layout as New Haven.  If you need a diner, use the MTL Pennsy heavyweight.  One, the model is prototypical, and two, the prototype ran through regularly from Washington to Boston (just as NH diners ran through from Boston to Washington and Pittsburgh).

Regarding lightweight car sides — there's no money in them anymore, for the most part.  It was marginal to begin with, and the lack of availability of the ALM core kit killed the remaining viability.  The etched car sides were run twice, and they sold out both times, but there's no desire to revisit at this point because of the lack of a core kit.  KV Models is doing well with the heavyweight car sides, which is good to see.  ESM is concentrating on injection molded products with the occasional craftsman kit.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

And no, this place isn't "sunshine and roses", but I don't think aimless complaining does anyone any good.

[randgust]

Spent some time rooting around Shapeways the last couple of days trying to find information about a new shell I've seen.

Wow, if you haven't been there lately, the offerings keep increasing geometrically.    There are certainly basic problems but there are also paradigm shifts there too. 

First is the printing in the plastic instead of FUD.   I'm tellin' ya, if you haven't seen a plastic-printed shell yet you're missing something.   The TP56 was my first, won't be the last.   I've never been a big FUD fan but this stuff is different.  Once it's cleaned up, you'd mistake it for injection molded.   The trucks actually had separate brake cylinder pistons printed, you can't do that in injection molding.

Second, the designer of the shell I'm currently looking at told me that he SOLD THE DRAWING, not the shells.... and that answers the eternal question of how the heck you make any money there, as the Shapeways cut you get is pretty laughable.   But if you do proof of concept, and it takes off, the drawing file rights are worth more than the printing percentage.   I've seen another guy do this when his Shapeways drawing disappeared and it showed up as a conventional kit on his web page, now injection molded.

So you're seeing a new evolution of a free-market design community in Shapeways translating to into mass production where the R&D and tooling cost barriers are lower, production is still high, but there's such high quality coming off of print files that economics are changing.  The cost=volume still kills HO, but for N scale it's about a tie on pricing as a printed shell of a car or loco is still pretty reasonable.

And that will make more changes in product availability as the price of printers drops, the designers sell their work rather than get the thin markup, good designs translate into small-scale production for places with high-quality printers.

What's still essentially lacking are two things - most of the designers can still draw better than they can engineer, and very few concepts ever show a finished model or how it adapts to a mechanism if it is locomotive.    Second major flaw is that finishing skills are left to the modeler, in an era where painting and decaling have slipped.    But the ability to come up with a very unique, N scale model of a high-quality printed item is still exploding.   

For you New Haven guys, I see the two Roger Williams RDC's are out there now in plastic prints.   That's the exact thing I mean.   Talk about a product that would have never, ever, been seen until RP came of age.

[bbussey]

@randgust — Fine Detailed Plastic is FUD, while Smooth Fine Detailed Plastic is FXD. They changed the names for (I’m guessing) greater clarity. But it’s the same material, which is ProJet UHD and XHD resin respectively.

[tom mann]

And no, this place isn't "sunshine and roses", but I don't think aimless complaining does anyone any good.

I’ve never imagined TRW would be described as such.

[Spades]

@randgust — Fine Detailed Plastic is FUD, while Smooth Fine Detailed Plastic is FXD. They changed the names for (I’m guessing) greater clarity. But it’s the same material, which is ProJet UHD and XHD resin respectively.

Brian

Have the machines doing the actual rendering gotten better, or better calibrated?  The stuff I have recently received has been extremely good.

[thomasjmdavis]

Regarding lightweight car sides — there's no money in them anymore, for the most part.  It was marginal to begin with, and the lack of availability of the ALM core kit killed the remaining viability.  The etched car sides were run twice, and they sold out both times, but there's no desire to revisit at this point because of the lack of a core kit.  KV Models is doing well with the heavyweight car sides, which is good to see.  ESM is concentrating on injection molded products with the occasional craftsman kit.

Sides for the cars in question are still made by Union Station products.  They also make several styles of fluting that can be applied to smoothside cars and locomotives.  While like several others, I prefer etched sides, the USP sides have come to the rescue on several occasions when metal sides were not available. (note that you need to use the drop down menu on their car pages to be sure you are ordering N scale sides- the upside is that the N scale sides are $7 less than the HO scale sides)
https://unionstationproducts.com/new-york-new-haven-amp-hartford

The lack of complete core kits has caused difficulty for all the side manufacturers.  The roof-floor-end sprues have been available (USP lists them).  I am surprised that cores have not been done in 3D printing, or that no one has done resin underbody details- there would seem to be a market, at least for resin manufacturing quantities.

I am tempted to try to buy the tooling myself- but I assume it is designed to work with particular equipment and I could not just run down to the closest injection molding company to run a small batch, even if it could be repaired.

[peteski]

  But if you do proof of concept, and it takes off, the drawing file rights are worth more than the printing percentage.   I've seen another guy do this when his Shapeways drawing disappeared and it showed up as a conventional kit on his web page, now injection molded.

Randy, that was the reason 3-d printing was originally developed: Rapid Prototyping.   To be able to quickly make a prototype part from a CAD drawing to evaluate it before production.

[randgust]

The latest shell I got was printed in white (not black) and in "Smooth Fine Detail Plastic".  The truck sideframes were the same stuff, but one was gray instead of white.

It's nothing like FUD.  FUD is both transluscent and very brittle, and is porous.  This is flexible, no visible striations that I can see, only sign that it's even printed is the telltale remnants of the mounting sprues off the bottom of the shell.

Call it what you want, but I never want to see a FUD shell again after this stuff.  And it's not warped, and it's not shrunk either.  The previous similar material I had for the TP56 was black, had trace striations, and was noticeably warped, even on such a small print.    I've had some cool stuff done in FUD, but wow, brittle enough to shatter (had a forklift tine break off by knocking it over).

I'm quite familiar with what the intent of RP was, but you've seen Shapeways elevate it in a low-run production model.  In our hobby it's not common to see it elevate back to what it was originally intended for - testing a concept and then mass-producing it.    One of my friend's sons is a designer for Disney (they test-prototype all animation characters and marketable stuff into toys before the animation is ever finished) and the stuff HE can do off a first-quality RP-printer is still head-and-shoulders beyond the likes of us have ever seen.  You see no striations from printing at all, the resolution is beyond good. 

[peteski]

Shapeways website is getting harder and harder to get any useful info from.   
Randy, they have changed the names of all their materials. Randy, if you go to https://www.shapeways.com/materials , could you point me to the material you are describing?  What is its name there?

[randgust]

There's a forum discussion here on this stuff that might help Pete, and they apparently did this just in August.

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/t/smooth-vs-smoothest.97749/

[peteski]

There's a forum discussion here on this stuff that might help Pete, and they apparently did this just in August.

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/t/smooth-vs-smoothest.97749/

Now I'm thoroughly confused.  I thought that you were talking about the dark gray (almost black) plastic.  The discussion you pointed to is about the translucent(white in areas) acrylic materails which used to be called FUD and FXD.  They are printed on the same machine but FXD has a finer Z-axis  resolution.  The plastic itself is the same. 

I think FUD on Shapeways is now called Fine Detail Plastic https://www.shapeways.com/materials/fine-detail-plastic, but I can't find what used to be called FXD (Frosted Extreme Detail)  Or maybe what they now call Fine Detail Plastic is actually FXD, and FUD is nowhere to be found.     Their website is terrible.

They also offered the dark-colored  material, but I'm not sure what they call it now.  They used to have a handy chard with all the materials, their properties and resolution, but it seems to be gone.   Or I'm just stupid and can't find it.

[wcfn100]

Smooth Fine Detail Plastic = FUD
Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic = FXD

Both under the heading of "Fine Detail Plastic"



Jason