Any remaining enthusiasm with DCC is pretty much gone

[randgust]

Starting off, I'm a once-techie, now management, but in 'my day' I had to learn not just programming, but IP protocols, wrote my own communication handshakes for manufacturing lines, and learned to program industrial robots with AB controllers.  So I've been in tech, speak binary, and have an old calculator to add hexdecimal in the days when you had to do that to track a core dump.

On the layout, it's always been DC, but there's been a lot of interest in adding decoders to my kits.  I can fit them physically, but getting them to match the quality of operation I expect on DC has been, and once again, is a complete epic fail.

I got a Digitrax Zephyr used - DCS50 - as a starter about three years ago.   First decoder attack was a TCS Z2 small enough to fit in my Climax models.   Long story short, horrible performance, two warranty exchanges, sent to Lee Weldon for his analysis and he had the same issues, finally tore it out and gave up, blamed it on the TCS Z2.  Loco ran great analog, was a stuttering, resetting mess on DCC decoder with no valid explanation.

So now, I'm back, this time experimenting with DZ126 digitrax, figuring hopefully it would be better.   It's been a battle, but this time it's finished me off.  After full testing on the test track, and meter and hot-wire testing the headlight circuits, motor and light circuits passed, ran great actually, put it all together on the workbench and tested it once on straight analog DC.  Ran OK, surged, no good slow speed control, headlights even reversed.  OK so take it back down to the DCC test track circuit and all hell broke loose.

Can't address the locomotive now.   Put it on analog 00 and it shot off the end of the test track on to the floor.   Put it back on with the right address and it can't even see it.    OK, did a factory reset of the DCS50.   

This time, both headlights come on ?, the decoder can't locate, and it won't move.

factory reset again.   This time ONE headlight comes on, won't go off with F0, and it actually moves OK.

Factory reset again.    Now I'm back to nothing working at all.

Factory reset again.   Back to one headlight, no response to F0, and it works OK.

Still runs on anlog DC, but now the headlights don't work like they did before, so that's also compromised.

Factory reset again.   Loco stalls, headlights reverse, loco reverses, stalls, shuts down with no response.  Done.

Factory reset again, back to one headlight, no response to F0, works again.  Time to stop the madness.

So I have absolutely no confidence in my DCS 50, and very little confidence in the decoder, and with no other control unit and no other decoder, no way to analyze anything to do a systematic problem solving algorithm other than randomly experimenting.

You know, I've programmed a lot of stuff.   If this is even considered close to current state of the art in DCC, I'm done.  Seriously, programming chips with hard-set CV settings and hex calculation offsets?  I did that with a Heathkit teaching robot in 1985 and even then it was primitive and a complete pain.    There has to be a better way to do this than the DCS 50.  This is stone-age interface.

I'm not interested in problem resolution now, like they say in "It's a Wonderful Life", "You can go out the door or out the window" with the system I've got.   If there's another entry-level system that has a COMPUTER OR PHONE interface to show all the CV's, software that is INTEGRATED with the control station and the chips so that you can actually see what the *#$@@! is going on, and DIAGNOSTIC programs at least as semi-sophisticated as a PING command to be able to view some basic communication settings, I'd like to know.    Because this is just nuts.  I can't believe you all put up with it if the black-button, Function key, LED display is how this is supposed to be done with nearly 100 various CV settings that behave as differently as they do.  I can't believe they still even sell this unit but apparently they do.

I'm impressed with the potential, and the sound, and I'm fully aware that many have mastered it and love it.  Great.  But as I used to teach much of my IT staff, you're just here to solve problems.  If it can be solved with a paper and pencil, then give them a tablet and something to write with.   And for trains, my stuff on a medium-small layout runs trains great on DC with all the tweaks I've done.  This DCC approach is just NOT fun.   

[Chris333]

lol

I never liked DCC before I ever tried or used it. Earlier this year I bought a DCC system, the only reason was to put sound in a On30 loco. All that happened was I found a whole lot more I didn't like about DCC and in the end I didn't like how the loco ran and wasn't at all impressed with the sound. Soon as I get back to the trains I'll probably sell the DCC system.

[jagged ben]

...There has to be a better way to do this than the DCS 50.  This is stone-age interface.

I'm not interested in problem resolution now, like they say in "It's a Wonderful Life", "You can go out the door or out the window" with the system I've got.   If there's another entry-level system that has a COMPUTER OR PHONE interface to show all the CV's, software that is INTEGRATED with the control station and the chips so that you can actually see what the *#$@@! is going on, and DIAGNOSTIC programs at least as semi-sophisticated as a PING command to be able to view some basic communication settings, I'd like to know.    Because this is just nuts.  I can't believe you all put up with it if the black-button, Function key, LED display is how this is supposed to be done with nearly 100 various CV settings that behave as differently as they do.  I can't believe they still even sell this unit but apparently they do.

No, we don't put up with it.  We use DecoderPro from JMRI, on a computer.   Yes, the command station itself is antiquated and the USB interface is a bit of a kludge in that it costs more.  But progress has been made.

I gotta turn in but I'm sure others will be willing to answer your specific questions if you want to give it another go.

[TrainboySD40]

DCC is indeed a lot of extra work and frustration - for me, the payoff is absolutely worth it. I can run any locomotive with any other locomotive (or 6) anywhere I want. I can have manned helpers. Consistently lit headlights. Not to mention sound! NCE isn't any further ahead in the 90s TV remote style, and I do little CV programming with the throttle. Like others, I do most in JMRI through an interface. This also helps me restore settings to a decoder if I mess something up!

[peteski]

I know that there are lots of fans of Digitrax, but I have a feeling that if you started off with another DCC system you possibly might not be as frustrated. My personal experience with the NCE Power Cab is quite pleasant (for a starter system for under $150).  As mentioned, JRMI is also quite helpful for keeping track of the decoder settings (especially for larger fleets of locos), but in this case I don't think it would have made much difference.

If you went with a ZIMO or ESU decoder, you woudl likely have much more positive experience. European DCC manufacturers are years ahead of Americans when it comes to decoder design (and especially the motor control).  They are more expensive, but you now how the old adage goes. . .

Not sure where the hex calculations of offsets come in. The only thing I can think of is calculating the value of CV29. My NCE system does all that automatically (and using English language dialog on the display).  JMRI also automates this process using plain English language selections.  Even if you have some ancient or basic DCC system where you need to manually calculate the value of CV29, there are many online calculators which will do that for you.

I would love to get my hands on your misbehaving loco to  see that the problem is.  Is it the same one you had problem with in the past with the TCS decoder?

BTW, I would *HIGHLY* discourage anyone from using the "zero-stretching" address "00" on DCC.  Most "grown-up" DCC systems don't even have that functionality.

DCC is not *THAT* bad or complicated.  It can be complicated, but doesn't have to be (especially with a small DCC setup). While it can have its own set of problems and glitches, it really is noting to be averse to. DC has its own set of problems too (but after years of dealing with them, you come to accept them and put up with them).

[daniel_leavitt2000]

I find programing with NCE is fairly straight forward. ESU controlers are supposed to be very good with programing.

One frustration I have with NCE is that the USB connection never seemed to work. So no JMRI for me.

Digitrax has always seemed obtuse to me. Needlessly complex programing for no apparent benefit. I don't like the controllers and my experience with their decoders has been marginal. They can operate OK, but programming them to do so can take a very long time - 45 minutes or more with multiple hard resets. NCE works well once you get the hang of their programing. My one experience with TCS has been good - very nice motor control out of the box. ESU and BLI both needed some minor adjustments for initial start speed on step 1 and maximum 60 SMPH at step 28.

But yeah, Digitrax sucks. I use their wired decoders in my Bachmann C40-8s and each took over an hour to play nice with my NCE and other decoder equipped engines.

[Doug G.]

I am with Randy. I spent a lot of my career doing similar things with IT, Connectivity, networking, debugging, proprietary hardware and software to operate hearing aid testing machines, circuits to make new computers work with old ones, etc.

I am also impressed with the work done and several of the videos on here but, I just want to buy a loco and put it on the track and run it. I don't want to spend a lot of time programming and/or debugging things before I can run a loco.

Of course, I actually like running trains with the old block-with-switches method because I feel like I am more duplicating the prototype even if it isn't exactly prototypical. I like having to check that everything is set correctly so I can actually run a loco/train where I want to. If I mess up, well, the prototype operators mess up too.

To me, DCC is like an engineer just jumping into any locomotive he wants to and driving off with it without getting the OK.

Doug

[peteski]

To me, DCC is like an engineer just jumping into any locomotive he wants to and driving off with it without getting the OK.

Doug

Oh come on.
Not if you set the operating rules on your layout for them not to do that. There could be a rule book and a protocol for them to follow (just like with real trains). Real engineers also don't fumble with block control switches while the train is running. 

[railnerd]

DCC vs. DC is the N-scale equivalent of NCE vs. Digitrax vs. "DeadRail"

 

[peteski]

DCC vs. DC is the N-scale equivalent of NCE vs. Digitrax vs. "DeadRail"

 

If this is to get me to say that DIgitrax is the nastiest and least intuitive DCC system to use, you won't get me to say that. 

[mighalpern]

For me,
 as a super occasional user I don't think DCC is that bad. 
Programing WAS a bear, even on a DT 400 throttle, until JMRI came along.  I still use my old SPROG II and a figure 8 track to program everything. !!!  that tool right there is the best thing to have.
I like the fact that i have created a database for each loco and can re-program it if that ever needs to be done very easy.  Love setting up the light effects and such.  i have not dabble with sound that much, so can't give you my 2 cent there.

If I were to start over I would give the NCE cab a go.  Several members of my round robin have them and they are intuitive. I took one out of the box and just began using it with the well documented drill down menus.  piece of cake.  and Just get JMRI.  it's free !!

I started with digitrax, cuz they were the only game in town at the time, but I have not had any real serious issues with their stuff although I do have 2 DS150's with opposing polarities which makes it some much more fun to wire up the layout , but once was  know the issue ,your good.  shoot I still use my DT 300 and UT throttle's

As for decoders I have used several and don't have any preference.  Just good wiring and clean soldering is a must.  I like the drop in decoders, but I have have a little fussiness with some not seating tight and having poor contact. 

Don't give up.  I go thru a learning curve every few months when i fire up my layout, but once its going, its very sweet.

My 2.5 cents ( inflation )

Miguel

[C855B]

Oh come on.
... Real engineers also don't fumble with block control switches while the train is running. 

Yes, but real dispatchers do.    Running a model railroad requires both crafts.

I'm puzzling through Randy's issues, especially since my main programming tool is also a DCS50. I have had very little trouble in 10 years of doing this. Until recently I've used nothing but TCS decoders, from drop-ins to hard-wiring 1st and 2nd generation "DCC hostile" power. If something is flaky, it's nearly always because I've missed isolating something in the install. I've toasted exactly one decoder, and that was also due to an isolation mind-fart, and TCS replaced it. Unless there is a hidden short or bad circuit path, I can't explain the Z2 (or DZ126) problems.

I don't mess with CVs in "everyday" work. That's what JMRI DecoderPro is for. It works fine with the DCS50 and PR2, in both Mac and Linux environments.

So color me  .

I'm not saying that Randy's gripes aren't legitimate, I'm just relating that my DCC experience with a similar base setup has been overwhelmingly positive.

[John]

I wonder if the decoder needs to be status edited ..

http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB829/zephyr-decoder-speed-step-settings-status-editing/

https://dccwiki.com/Digitrax_Hints



The Digitrax DCS50 Zephyr is set at the factory to send 128 speed step commands to all mobile decoders.

If you have a non-Digitrax decoder that can’t run in 128 speed step mode, you can change the number of speed steps the DCS50 sends to that decoder so that you will be able to control the decoder. This is called status editing the decoder. When you status edit a decoder, the DCS50 will send a different format to that specific decoder address without affecting the 128 speed step operation of Digitrax decoders and other 128 speed step decoders on the railroad.

NOTE: Status editing occurs within the command station and does not reprogram anything in the mobile decoder. It only changes the messages that are sent to the specific decoder address by the command station.

The reason that this may happen is that within the DCC format there are several ways decoders and command stations communicate speed step information. All of your decoders and your command station must be “speaking the same dialect of the DCC language” for everything to work smoothly.

The Digitrax DCS50 Zephyr is set at the factory to send 128 speed step mode information because the 128 speed step format provides for the best speed control available. All Digitrax decoders are 128 speed step decoders. Some non-Digitrax decoders use other speed step formats and won’t respond to your DCS50 sending 128 speed step information.

You may find it necessary to change how Zephyr operates a particular locomotive decoder.

This happens with older decoders that only operate in 14-step or 28-step speed modes.  Zephyr assumes that all locomotives are 128-speed step units, but can be programmed to remember a specific decoder address's speed step settings.

To Change the Speed Step Settings for a Decoder:

1. Select the LOCO address you want to status edit.

2. Press the STEPS key. The display will show the choices available. You can scroll through the choices by pressing the + or - keys.



3. Once the speed step setting you want to use is in the display, press the EXIT key to complete the speed step setting change and return to regular operating mode. Once this change is made, the DCS50 Zephyr command station will send DCC commands to the edited decoder in the speed step setting you entered

[rrjim1]

I have used a Digitrax system from day one and also have a lot of TCS Z2 decoders in locos. I have never had any problems period, just install the decoder test it and then program it. My guess is the Digitrax Zephyr used - DCS50 might be the problem and the reason the original owner sold it.

[Scottl]

I am at best a casual DCC user- I don't engage with any of the details and have yet to get to JMRI yet.  I've been rewarded with a system that does what it should, out of the box, more or less.  NCE with TCS and now ESU decoders.  The latter are really great and they make my locos run amazingly smooth.  I can't imagine running without DCC now.

I've used Digitrax a few times and the only thing intuitive about it is the knob.  I have to be reminded how to do the basics every time. I get why people use it, but I also get why people get frustrated with it like the OP describes.  It all has the makings of some kind of secret society, with a 1980s coding/interface set of handshakes as the ritual highlight.